Notes on Reality Discussion Forum
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Thoughtful comments for and against Christianity, the Bible,
Evolution and Creation are welcome however I've seen forums where
the discussion turns nasty; I will delete nasty comments.
From: Farrah
Time: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 at 03:57:07 (GMT)
The Tatjana I know in real life?? Serious? :-)
From: Tatjana
Time: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 at 03:11:27 (GMT)
Hi Farrah,
Keep up the good work. Just want to say hello. :)
Tatjana
From: Farrah
Time: Saturday, August 30, 2008 at 07:49:08 (GMT)
That makes sense! Well, I felt better today, but tonight my nose is acting up again.
I have a strong logical side to my brain, so I can certainly appreciate reason, etc. God says it's best to just have faith and believe, but I think when someone needs to see evidence or proof, He will provide it. I think He loves us so much that He will do everything He can to help us make it.
Several years ago I read a neat (true) story about a guy who was atheistic and ended up in the middle of a huge forest fire. There were a couple of astounding miracles that happened when he prayed, one of which saved his life. He became a believer after that. God isn't unreasonable at all. He's wonderful!
And when you have a close relationship with Him, you start seeing Him everywhere, in everything. Your eyes are opened...
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Friday, August 29, 2008 at 23:53:54 (GMT)
Hi Farrah,
I only check my mail once a day and today I am late so I hope you're
still sick and craving a good discussion. :-)
I was raised Catholic and as a science kind of guy nothing they said
made sense. I did however sense that there was a God out there and
He was a nice guy. I went searching for something that made sense.
One day they were advertising the movie, The Late Great Planet
Earth. I was interested in the future. But not being a movie
person I went out and bought the book and Hal Lindsey's book about
Revelation. At the end of one of them Hal gave a description of
Christianity that made sense.
Since then I've been working to figure God out in more detail so I
could explain Him to people like me, you know, science type people,
in a way that would make sense to them. Christians don't realize it
but modern, rational, scientific type people don't think the same
way as your ordinary Christian. When ordinary Christians talk to
science type people about Christianity it really sounds like
gibberish. So I've been working on these Notes on Reality pages to
do exactly that. It will be a book called The Haunted Mansion:
Basic Christianity for Modern People.
Bible prophecy is a tough subject because you can often get
different ways of interpreting the text. I think Hal Lindsey's
interpretation is pretty reasonable although I don't necessarily
think he has the timing of the events down, I have my own idea.
In Bible prophecy there will be a person indwelt by Satan, who can
do miracles and who will unite the world for an end to war, poverty,
racism, sexism and disease.
There is a widespread belief in this world that things happen at
random. Even Christians have it although they often don't notice
it. So some people are born rich by chance and some people are born
poor by chance. Some people get good opportunities by chance and
some people don't. It's said that some people win life's lottery
but most don't.
So in modern politics the goal of many politicians (notably
Democrats) is to make things fair by redistributing wealth,
basically by creating a socialist worker's paradise. (Elect us and
we'll give you everything for free!) Moreover if everything was
fair wars would disappear as well. Money would be spent on
healthcare. This is extremely appealing to die-hard sinners. They
can say, "It's not my fault, it is the fault of THOSE OTHER PEOPLE,
THOSE rich people, THOSE greedy politicians, THOSE Republicans and
THOSE Christians." It is a much easier thing to do than to admit you
have a problem! They are looking for someone to fix things. They
are looking for a political leader that can bring people together to
do what they think will work. Of course they have been pretty
frustrated so far so they keep getting more and more anxious.
So that's where Obama comes in, he is their latest political
"Messiah". As Oprah said, "He's the One". Or as Obama himself
said, "We are the ones we have been waiting for!". (Like the Jews
waiting for the Messiah, the Muslims waiting for the Mahdi, and the
irreligious looking for a political Messiah - the anti-Christ).
Obama has produced a Messianic furor among the political people.
They fawn all over him. They get tingles up and down their legs.
This is EXACTLY the kind of reaction you will see when the real
anti-Christ shows up. The world will fawn all over him and see him
as the answer to all the world's problems. They will be eager to
worship him as their savior. Obama may or may not be THE
anti-Christ but the reaction you see from unbelievers really shows
how thrilled the people of the world will be when the anti-Christ
does show up.
For Christians of course this is a faulty view of the world. The
world is bad because it is filled with sinners. The point of living
in this world is to notice that you are a sinner and you need to
repent. People who do are gradually made over into new and
different (better) people who will go on to paradise (Heaven).
Nothing is happening at random, God has a good plan for everyone no
matter how poor or disadvantaged they may be to start with.
Don
From: Farrah
Time: Friday, August 29, 2008 at 04:10:24 (GMT)
Now here's one for you, Don: Can you tell me your testimony? What is your experience with Jesus? Did you give your heart to him? Were you raised in church? What is your religion? OK, that's several questions. :-)
From: Farrah
Time: Friday, August 29, 2008 at 04:05:50 (GMT)
I'm sitting here with a raging cold, blowing my nose every few minutes, and I am really craving a good discussion to take my mind off of it. So here goes, even if no one is around, it will be me and my tissues. :-)
I do appreciate your prompt and complete answer to my question.
I wasn't going to answer this one, because I have an extremely narrow-minded view on prophecy, and I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I actually always shy away from "prophetic" stuff. People running here and there, panicking, predicting, getting carried away with fulfillment of prophecy. It has always been a huge turn-off for me, and lots of that goes back to how I was raised. I was taught that all that stuff is baloney, that most of the Bible today is to be interpreted in a symbolic way, including the vast majority of Revelation. It's REALLY hard for me to break away from that teaching and take anyone into prophecy seriously. I'm really sorry if this sounds cold or...ignorant. Sometimes I wish I were more open-minded, and yet I am so much more open-minded than I was even a year ago. I'd need to REALLY know and have faith in a person before I could have a good discussion on prophecy and current events.
Having said all that...
I sometimes listen to Sean Hannidy. Not much, because he has been TERRIBLE on his candidate picks this election. But lately he has been calling Obama "the anointed one," etc. I can certainly see where you're coming from. This has been such a strange election. They don't even seem to know if Obama was born a US citizen! Crazy! And he sounds like a preacher when he talks!! (Then again, Huckabee IS a preacher, and I really like him.)
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Monday, July 28, 2008 at 15:59:52 (GMT)
Hi Farrah,
On the one hand a lot of people are against Christ and therefore can be called anti-christs.
On the other hand it is very common to say that in the days before Jesus returns (people usually quote 7 years), that there will be charismatic world leader who will unite the world behind him. See especially Revelation chapter 13. He has a false prophet, a sort of fake Elijah, he does miracles. The antichrist suffers a head wound and dies or appears to die but comes back to life. He requires people to have the number 666 stamped on their hand or forehead. He requires everyone to worhip him as God. He is indwelt by Satan. He makes a peace agreement with Israel and then breaks it halfway through. That's the one I mean.
I think about how the world is fawning all over Obama and I can't help but think that's EXACTLY what they're going to do for the Anti-Christ. Of course Obama might not be the AC, it may be someone else altogether but the human reactions I'm seeing are interesting, people are ready for The Anti-Christ.
Don
From: Farrah
Time: Sunday, July 27, 2008 at 03:16:06 (GMT)
Hi Don,
Please define "Anti-Christ."
In the New Testament, it says that the antichrist was already here back in biblical times.
I John 2:
[18] Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
[19] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
[20] But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
[21] I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
[22] Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Thus, anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ and came in a fleshly form, is an antichrist. There are many, many people out there who fit this definition.
I John 4:
[1] Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
[2] Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
I would say that the Jews who do not confess that Jesus ever came are all part of the antichrist spirit as well as many other faiths.
II John 1:
[7] For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
To me, scripture is pretty clear on this. That's why I'm thinking I might not be familiar with the word as you know it.
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Saturday, July 26, 2008 at 21:35:19 (GMT)
So many people are comparing Obama to the Messiah I've started to wonder if Obama may be the Anti-Christ. Anyone have an opinion?
Don
From: Farrah
Time: Thursday, July 24, 2008 at 18:52:36 (GMT)
Enjoyed your tangent, Tom. :-) I expect to know history very well in the next five years. I'll be learning it with my son, Lord willing.
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 at 19:14:33 (GMT)
Hi Tom,
Yes, the Cain incident is one of the items that people bring up in order to argue for Men Before Adam (There is a book from the 1600s with that title and the idea got started in the 1500s.) That book Historical Genesis also argues that some Biblical figures like Adam and Noah show up in Mesopotamian cultures as wise and long-lived.
Of course some people translate Nephilim to be giants. If you go to the unusual Book of Enoch (easy to find on the net) the story there is that angels were marrying human women. I don't know what to make of that, it sounds silly to think that angels had DNA. The Nephilim come up in Genesis 6 where it also says the sons of God were marrying the daughters of men. One take on that is that angels were the sons of God and the daughters of men were ordinary humans. Another take is that the sons of God (Adam is called the son of God) were the descendants of Adam while the daughters of men were from the men before Adam. There are other verses that can be used to ague for men before Adam.
While going through the genesisproclaimed.org web site I ran into references to other books, like the Book of Jubilees and the First and Second Book of Adam. They supposedly have more details than the very short Biblical version yet they manage to contradict each other on the details of Adam and Eve and their descendants. They both make entertaining reading though.
Don
From: tom donlon
Time: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 at 23:25:30 (GMT)
Don,
I don't know the specifics of what happened in Genesis.
However the following Bible verse is interesting.
Genesis 4:13-14 Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.
Note that Cain is being expelled from the area ... and yet Cain still is aware that there are people out there who will find him and kill him.
I've heard theories about Neandertals and Homo Sapiens being these two groups of people. Before the flood in the Bible God has some offhand remarks that I don't understand. What are "Nephilim" for example?
Fred(ric) Heeren actually wrote an article on the topic of Neandertals and Homo Sapiens that appeared in the Washington Post. It will be an introduction to the question of Neandertals and Homo Sapiens interbreeding.
I've come across other articles on this topic too - that take a stronger view that humans and Neandertals interbred and they noted some people (non-scientific term here) with mixed features. I forget all the details but those living further in territory held by the other had more physical features of the other.
I'll pass on the other questions Don. Got other things to address now.
Peace,
tom
From: tom donlon
Time: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 at 20:02:27 (GMT)
Hi Farrah,
You wrote, "I think there could be some crossover between Satan's angels and demons. That is, the two words might at times be used interchangeably."
That is where I stand Farrah. I would say "Satan's angels" are fallen angels who joined him in rebelling against God. These rebels are also called demons. There can be more than one name for them.
In the civil war fighters for the south were called "rebels" by the north. They may have called themselves "confederates" - and perhaps there was another name that I forget. Abe Lincoln called them "those people" and still believed them to be Americans. He wanted to reunite them to the Union and he taught, "with malice toward none, and charity towards all" regarding the South.
And in the heat of war soldiers on both sides call their opponents many more names - lot's of them not complimentary. General Lee who was a well-respected practicing Christian said that he prayed for the people of the Union every day - even while fighting against them. (This remark of his was recorded during the war - it wasn't merely said after the south lost.)
Now Robert E. Lee believed later that choosing a career in the military was the worst mistake of his life. However, General Robert E Lee played an important and pivotal role at the end of his battles. Now apparently his confederate forces were largely surrounded by the Union forces led by General Grant. Lee could have disbanded his army and had them take up gorilla warfare. The Union forces of the North could not have occupied and stabilized the south in a gorilla warfare situation. There would have been anarchy. It is regarded as the finest moment in his life that he surrendered in order to spare bloodshed and anarchy. In the state of Missouri I believe the state was wracked by gangs from each side terrorizing the population. It was horrible as atrocities were committed by both sides. No one could trust his neighbor for many were falsely accusing their neighbors of being on one side or the other.
General Lee saved many lives by being responsible and surrendering. General Grant was very gracious to the surrendering soldiers too. I read a book titled May (18??I forget the year) and I had some tears reading about the surrender of General Lee and his soldiers. The respect and kindness that these armies treated each other at surrender ceremony was very touching.
I am moist eyed just thinking about it.
So, this post is more of a tangent than just a response to what you posted.
From: Farrah
Time: Monday, July 21, 2008 at 03:02:53 (GMT)
Don,
I've never heard of anything like that, so I think I'll have to do some reading/research before commenting.
From: Farrah
Time: Monday, July 21, 2008 at 03:00:27 (GMT)
Hi Tom! Long time, no see! ;-)
I agree that some of your angel scriptures could mean what you think they mean. Others, I would interpret differently.
The angel that came before God in Job makes for a very odd story. I think there could be some crossover between Satan's angels and demons. That is, the two words might at times be used interchangeably.
Remember when Jesus talked to the demons He cast out and granted their request to be sent into the swine?
Mark 5
[1] And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
[2] And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
[3] Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
[4] Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
[5] And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
[6] But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
[7] And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
[8] For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
[9] And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
[10] And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
[11] Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
[12] And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
[13] And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.
This is also an odd story. Why would Jesus even have a conversation with demons like that, and why did he grant their request to be sent into swine? Why did he have those chats in Job? Very odd. I'm not sure I would take all of that to be how it looks at face value. When something strikes me as odd, I look for meaning I can apply in my own life and move on.
Basically, we don't understand why God does things sometimes. I don't see God having a conversation with an angel as demonstrating the angel has a free will. I can certainly see your point, though.
I'm not sure the kind and comforting words were meant for the angel. Perhaps it was written that way to mean they were comforting to the man to whom the angel spoke.
On the battle of Jesus with Satan:
Jesus came to destroy the work that Satan did back in the Garden of Eden. We are all born with the seed of sin in our hearts. Once children are old enough to understand right from wrong, they begin to sin naturally. It is passed down through all generations. Jesus came to destroy that work. When He died and rose again, He destroyed what Satan had begun by making it possible for us to be cleansed from sin and the punishment that follows it.
This was promised back in Genesis:
[14] And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
[15] And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
God said that Satan's head would be bruised by man and Satan would bruise man's heel. I take this to mean that Satan would hurt man as part of the punishment of sin, but man would deal a blow to Satan's head. The blow to the head is more deadly than one to the heel. When Jesus died and rose, He dealt a deadly blow to Satan's head. He triumphed over sin in every way. When Satan tempted Him after 40 days in the wilderness, He did not sin. Even death, a result of sinning in the garden, could not hold Him. And when He was crucified, He took the punishment we deserved.
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Sunday, July 20, 2008 at 18:41:20 (GMT)
Let me try and start things up again. There is an interesting site,
genesisproclaimed.org The author has a book (or two?) out. The latest is called Historical Genesis and it promotes the interpretation that God first made humans all over the world and then created Adam and Eve later on, about 4000 BC like the Bible says. So here you have an interesting re-interpretation of Genesis that fits perfectly with Science and especially with archaeology of the Middle East. The site has quite a few pages on this with links to various papers that pretty much cover what's in the whole book.
Anyone have any comments?
Don
From: tom donlon
Time: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 at 22:23:46 (GMT)
Disregard my comment on the third line, “Angels and fallen angels work come before God.”
I was intending to say something like God can use angels or fallen angels to accomplish aspects of his work.
From: tom donlon
Time: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 at 22:19:06 (GMT)
Hi again Farrah,
I just had a few more thoughts on angels - and apparently a lot of scriptures :) .
Angels and fallen angels work come before God.
At the beginning of the book of Job, angels came before God to discuss various topics. In Job 1:6 and Job 2:1 Satan was challenging God - alleging that Job wasn't really pure deep down.
Another time when a counsel of angels came together - and God already having decided to replace Ahab the King -, He asked for input from those around him on how to do this. God granted that an evil spirit could fulfill his purpose.
1 Kings 22:19-23 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?' "One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.' 22 "'By what means?' the LORD asked. "'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. "'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.' 23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
Another interesting scripture - Zechariah 1:12-14 12 Then the angel of the LORD said, "LORD Almighty, how long will you withhold mercy from Jerusalem and from the towns of Judah, which you have been angry with these seventy years?" 13 So the LORD spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who talked with me. 14 Then the angel who was speaking to me said, ....
The reason the scripture is interesting is that it shows an independence of angels. The Angel wasn't just a robot ... but an individual. The angel needed kind and comforting words spoken - for the angel was distressed about Jerusalem.
So, with angels having independent feelings - it means they can therefore choose to be angry, outraged, or have other individual feelings and motivations - and hence their actions may also turn against God if their feelings turn against God.
Paul even wrote that the purpose of the church (and I think why God made humans in the flesh) is stated in Ephesians 3:10-11. “His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
(I have heard that this terminology that Paul uses about Authorities and Rulers matches or utilizes the terminology spread through the Greek world about Angelic ranks.)
Ephesians 6:12-13 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
Colossians 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Colossians 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
1 Peter 3:21-22 It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand-- with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
These scriptures show the struggle Jesus was in with the Devil.
1 John 3:8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
Hebrews 2:14-15 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death-- that is, the devil-- 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
For some reason I don't fully understand - or maybe even partly understand - Jesus came to thwart some purpose of Satan. Jesus appeared “to destroy the devil's work.” And Jesus died “so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death-- that is, the devil-- 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.”
So there was struggle between God and Satan that God had to win.
And that God works through the church also has some purpose to play in all this.
Ephesians 3:10-11 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This is in one way similar to the scripture in Zechariah chapter 1 above. The angels don't know everything. They want to learn. The passage in Zechariah showed the angel needed specific kind and comforting words to benefit by.
The main point of Ephesians 3:10-11 is that God is teaching the inhabitants of the heavenly realm by what he is doing in the church.
God used Job to teach angels - or at least reveal the difference between Satan's views of Job and God's views. Poor Job never got an explanation for what happened to him - although he did learn to totally trust God through his trial. (Incidently, God wanted Job to pray for his less righteous friends. After Job prayed for his friends God healed Job.
---- it is important to God that we pray for each other. The prophet Samuel said to the Israelites in 1 Samuel 12:23 “As for me, far be it from me that I should sin against the LORD by failing to pray for you.”)
Peter had a remark that showed the intense significance to what God is doing on earth to angels. The angels are very curious to figure out what is happening and what God is doing.
1 Peter 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
Paul seemed to mention the independence of angels when he wrote the following. Romans 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(An extra bonus scripture on “more than conquerors”. It is an illusion or reference to the idea in Proverbs 16:32 which says, “Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city.” So while conquerors get lots of accolades in this life - for they win military battles - it is far more important to God to be in control our spirit - or patient. For anger just stirs up one mess after another. A city might be forced into submission at one period of time - but hatred increases as the proud victors cause more chaos.
Today more people see the humble approach taken by General Petreaous(sp?) to be better than the more aggressive approach taken prior.)
My wife likes to collect quotes. One quote from Mark Twain goes something like, “I didn't have time to write a short letter - so I wrote a long one instead." So I apologize if my comment is too long.
I enjoy writing you - and I am delighted to see you eager to learn and do what is best.
Whatever I've written that is helpful - has given me joy.
Proverbs 15:23 A man finds joy in giving an apt reply-- and how good is a timely word!
And anything good that was done was done by God.
Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-- not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-- continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
Blessings, (I don't have anything to say about church attendance at the moment.)
tom
From: Farrah
Time: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 at 05:56:36 (GMT)
Good to see you, Jake!
Forgive my long delay in replying. It was a very busy weekend, and it is shaping up to be a very busy week.
Yes, we inhabit a fallen world that traces all the way back to the Garden of Eden. It is easy to forget that and demand too much of people and churches. We are surrounded by the evidence of death and decay. Such dreary verses are rampant in the bible.
And yet...
I have found great joy in Jesus, peace that surpasses understanding. There is also beauty all around me and much to be thankful for. I praise Him! I have found that it is important for me to heed the following words:
Phil. 4
[4] Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.
[5] Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
[6] Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
[7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
[8] Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
This tells me to keep my mind more favorably engaged. To rejoice, to think on things that are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, virtue, praise, and of good report.
I know there is no perfect, manmade church. However, there must be something much better than what I have seen and heard of.
From: Jake Long
Time: Friday, July 11, 2008 at 23:46:29 (GMT)
Farrah:
Here are my thoughts.
This is a fallen world. That's the context in which I view all the issues you have mentioned.
People (certainly me included) often forget the world is fallen, even though we really do know it is.
That's one of the problems with Church. It's made up of fallen people. The pastor is a fallen person. All of the people who are gathered there in common purpose are fallen people. So I don't see how anyone can say your wrong for wanting to communicate directly with Jesus wherever you are, because Jesus of course is not fallen, rather than with fallen people no matter how high their gathered purpose in Church.
But then, on the other hand, the church is a good way to spread the Word to a fallen world.
So those two conflicting tendencies seem to exist together in a Church. Like I said, it's a fallen world. And we're trying to get out of it, and we will with Jesus.
As for God creating evil . . . . again, it's a fallen world. This fallen world is how those of us who know Jesus is our Savior get saved and go to Heaven.
There is disease and death and mass misery and destruction, all because this is a fallen world. And that is even before all of the destruction when Jesus returns. When Jesus returns, half of the people in the world are killed, killed in miserable and horrifying ways and then they are ticketed for Hell, and that's just the beginning.
This fallen world is destroyed at the end when Jesus returns. Jesus completely reconstitutes this world that he then reigns over. Revelations is very clear about that.
And then Jesus takes us to Heaven.
There is no evil in Heaven.
From: Farrah
Time: Friday, July 11, 2008 at 02:55:07 (GMT)
More thoughts for ya, Tom:
Church:
I read your comments about church with great interest. We have decided that the way churches are run today is problematic. Something I have witnessed firsthand is the reverence many people have for the “head pastor.” Too often they are placed above God. We are to respect our elders, not worship them. And a key word here is “them.” Plural. I feel that God never intended for a single man to run an entire church. After Jesus rose, we don’t see one man exalting himself over all the other disciples and apostles. They were equals, and when they gathered together, they discussed things as equals, prayed together, encouraged each other, shared testimonies and challenges. They did not gather so that one of them could tell all the others how they needed to improve.
Luke 22
[25] And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
[26] But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
[27] For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
I Pet.
[2] Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
[3] Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
[4] And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
[5] Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
Notice the part, “Neither as being lords over God’s heritage.”
God’s people in the Old Testament wanted a king. This greatly angered Him, but He gave them a king with a dismal message. The kings would bring them all kinds of trouble. It would have been better if they had followed God directly with no human leader. Plus, God was constantly talking to his people through prophets. It’s as if they had no inclination or ability to have a direct relationship with God. As humans, we are inclined to follow a man, but that’s not how God wants it. He wants us to follow Him.
A lady at a homeschooling site recently asked us this question:
"What motivates you to get up and go to church? I sometimes have problems in this area. I've bought books and tried to learn to do better, but sometimes it's hard.
Any tips or hints? Why do you go to church?"
This was my reply:
I have some pretty unusual views on this one. I'm not sure if I should express them...hmmm...
OK, I'm going to try. Background first. I was raised in church. In fact, much of my extended family was raised in a very strict church. Lots of rules to go by. Their churches probably all came from the same one at one time but ended up fracturing and splintering off...lots of divisions and strife. Some of my extended family hardly speak to each other because one church is against men wearing beards, another is against women wearing pants, women cutting their hair, men wearing neck ties, shoes that are the wrong style or color, and the list goes on. These are all real, actual examples.
This is what in my opinion many churches have become. A bunch of rules that try to bring people to holiness. People feel some measure of spiritual security if they follow all the rules and go to church. That was the kind of church I grew up in and didn't realize it. Until one woman's family came. She opened my eyes. For the first time I saw someone with an amazing capacity to love and an incredible passion for Jesus like I had never known possible. She lives and breathes ministry. You can't separate her from ministry. Always happy and excited about worship. Always welcoming new people with open arms. Wherever she goes, she is sharing the love of Christ...in line at a bank or shopping at Wal-mart. She is a living, breathing example to me straight out of the Bible.
Our church drove this lovely family away after a few years, and it broke my heart. We finally left a couple years ago, too. Ever since we have had church at home, just the three of us. We have prayed about if the Lord wants us to go anywhere, but He hasn't led us. I am absolutely certain that if church is not enjoyable there is something wrong with either the church, the individual or both.
This lady homeschools five kids, but when we talk on the phone, we talk about Jesus 99% of the time. She is my lifeline to fellowship. I come out of our conversations so blessed, it's indescribable. I know if I could go to a church with people like that I'd love it. But I don't know any place like that. Now, this lady goes to church wherever she is. If she doesn't like one, she tries another. When they are on vacation, she grabs a phonebook and picks the nearest one. She has been blessed by lots of good experiences this way, and right now she is going to a church she absolutely loves in Alaska. Sometimes I think maybe I'm just not ready to go back to one, and the Lord knows it. I don't have any patience for church problems and church hunting. I don't see any rule in the New Testament that says I need to go to church every Sunday. It says not to forsake getting together, but it doesn't say I need to go to a certain building every week. I worship God all day long, I am open to ministry, I get fellowship with other Christians, and I consider raising my son and being a good wife/friend, etc. to be part of my ministry.
I guess I'm saying that people who are living and breathing ministry don't NEED church, but they need fellowship for many reasons. That is how God's people should be. They should be living ministry all the time. The fellowship they need can come from church but doesn't have to. On the other hand, people who are lukewarm Christians need church to help them not fall into deep sin. It's like they are just barely staying afloat. And their church needs strong Christians there. I can see the need and purpose of churches. But the true Christian walk is living, breathing, exciting, constantly abiding, deep down joy that can't be taken away. I drug myself to services for years. They told me if I wasn't enjoying it that it was my fault. But I found that as I drew closer to my Lord, I was enjoying services less and less. Now I understand why. It wasn't me, it was my church.
From: Farrah
Time: Friday, July 11, 2008 at 02:31:07 (GMT)
Howdy Tom!
Satan's Origin:
The only scripture that comes to mind (for me) regarding Satan’s origins was something that Jesus said:
John 8
[44] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
This says that Satan was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth. I believe that means that Satan never was good, ever. He is not a fallen angel, because there wasn’t anything to fall from if he was always evil. Satan is the origin of all evil, and it has always been like that, since before time. He is like the opposite of God. There isn’t even a drop of good in Him, nor was there ever a drop of good. Just as God is completely, perfectly good and has always been completely, perfectly good, so Satan has always been completely, perfectly evil.
Would God create evil? I agree that's a tough one. Would God do anything evil? I know He wouldn’t do anything evil, but He might do something that we could perceive as evil. For example, when He obliterated entire nations (including innocent children), that could be perceived as doing something wrong or evil. I know that God is just, so it was just in His eyes, even though to me it seems unfair.
Pardon the pun, but Satan is a "necessary evil." He provides us with choices by way of temptation. Without a choice, we can’t do right. From an angle, the creation of something seemingly bad for a good purpose is not so far-fetched, at least not for me. The end result of creating Satan would be a people who love God in sincerity and truth, a people who shine like the stars with His glory, who go through the fire and come out beautiful. We are over-comers, we triumph over sin, we are victorious only because of Satan's existence.
Speaking of which, I have a good friend who read a book about people who have experienced Hell by visions or dreams. It was very powerful and moving for her. She told me some things that gave me some fascinating insight. One point was that everything written about Hell in the Bible matched exactly with the visions – the weeping and gnashing of teeth, for example. What would it take for you to gnash your teeth? Can you imagine that kind of agony? The darkness, the burning fire . . . And the most profound thing for me was that if you can try and fathom the incredible love God has for us, the centerpiece of His creation, this is matched by an equally unfathomable hate by Satan. Satan longs desperately to hurt and destroy us, simply because God loves us so much. What these people could not get over was the intensity of the hate they could feel from Satan. Hell will not be pleasant.
Prayer:
I appreciate your thoughts on prayer. I don’t know that I have prayed for His church before, and I think that is a wonderful idea. My prayer time could definitely be improved. I should make more time for it. And I like your idea of modeling some prayers for the church after Paul’s prayers. I am against repetitious prayers, but I might take a closer look at those.
From: tom donlon
Time: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 at 20:50:15 (GMT)
Hi Farrah,
I'll keep this very quick and brief. (Well it wasn't too brief.)
As for angels falling ... if you it hard to wrap your mind around ... think how hard it is to contemplate God creating beings just for the purpose of being evil. That makes less sense to me.
If you think that Angels have free will - much like it appears people have free will - then it will make more sense.
I said something about being a “team player”. It wasn't meant to be a judgment or an evaluation of anyone in particular. There are times not to be a team player (in terms of church attendance - or association with groups.) At this time my family isn't going to any particular church. Some of that has to do with the divisiveness of many churches. And there are a number of other reasons some good and some debatable why I am not going to a church.
It may be that for this moment God wants me more independent and not tied down with a church. I prayed a lot about this and have visited about 13 churches - I kind of get worn out by visiting many churches. (It may be that I am making a mistake in not attending a church right now - but maybe God will straighten out that issue down the road.)
1 Timothy 5:22 22 Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.
Sometimes we may have to separate from others in order not to share in their sins. Other times the sins of others may drive a person away from a larger body of believers. The apostle John said the following.
3 John 1:9-10 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will have nothing to do with us. 10 So if I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, gossiping maliciously about us. Not satisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.
Now, I think I had in mind that as we mature we become less concerned about whether every tiny activity is or is not a sin. (That doesn't sound right - I just mean we might not worry so much about trivial things that we forget major things.) Let me illustrate. At one time I was concerned about slave labor in China and I tried to buy shoes that were not made in China. Now whether or not I would buy shoes made in China aren't going to make a difference to anyone in China.
I don't think I found shoes not made in China after all that effort. Or if I did it - it was probably made by underpaid “exploited workers” in another country. Perhaps my time worrying and checking labels on multiple shoes could have better spent doing what Paul urged.
Ephesians 6:18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
(There are a lot of Chinese Christians - and there are a lot of cults - a lack of bibles - or there were - and many Christians there don't have a great deal of Biblical instruction so strange beliefs are said to flourish among many Chinese Christians.)
So many of Paul's prayers are recorded. He prays for all Christians. I think this is neglected by most Christians. We don't pray often for the entire body of Christ - and when we do - it is often for physical things. Paul focused on the spiritual growth of the church. He prayed the following and in each of his letters to the church he has something similar.
Philippians 1:9-11 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ-- to the glory and praise of God.
Romans 10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.
Ephesians 3:14-19 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge-- that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Philemon 1:6 I pray that you may be active in sharing your faith, so that you will have a full understanding of every good thing we have in Christ.
1 John 5:14-17 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us-- whatever we ask-- we know that we have what we asked of him. 16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
(You've already learned verse seventeen - I tossed it in as a
bonus.)
It is easy for me to copy and paste scriptures. I have at times made a list of all Paul's prayers for the church and made them my prayers too.
So, in some way praying Paul's mature prayers is a way to "help the team" and not just ourselves.
It is easy to get self-centered and very hard to pray for all the saints. (It is a difficult prayer because there isn't much in the way of direct feedback to us. We don't know how or whether God answers such prayers.)
I should get on with other things.
Blessings Farrah,
Tom
From: Farrah
Time: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 at 03:42:05 (GMT)
Greetings Tom!
I think it’s very important to always look at scripture in context and to think about what is taking place. Why were they saying that? What was going on at the time? What was the history behind it? Who were they talking to? The bible can be used to say almost anything if taken out of context. I am a strong proponent of looking at scripture to interpret scripture. I am sure you agree with all that. :-)
I have been having some trouble following some of your points due to confusion of when you switch topics. Would it be possible to distinguish between topics for me? I’ll show you what I mean:
On fallen angels scriptures:
I knew there are a handful of them and have read them. Thank you for listing them though. I agree that the finer details about angels we are probably not meant to understand. What I believe about angels has no impact on my Salvation, so it has never been very important to me. I was raised with the belief that the idea of fallen angels is ludicrous. But that can’t fly. I can’t hide under how I was raised.
I’m not doubting God’s Word, but I’m also not ready to believe in fallen angels. How can I doubt with those scriptures being there?
If you will humor me a moment . . . I am wondering how Peter and Jude came about this information. We have many of the same scriptures they had in our Old Testament. Both talk about these “fallen angels” as if it was common knowledge, well established truth, and yet I see no definite scripture anywhere that supports this. I know John had that vision in Revelation, but is that what Peter and Jude were referring to? Was John’s vision very common knowledge when they wrote their letters?
There are many places in the bible where things are called by a different name for the purpose of illustration and analogy. I don’t know if you have read the entire bible through, but there are a multitude of examples of this. The nation of Israel was often referred to as a woman. I don’t want to list a bunch, but I know God has referred to kings, nations, and cities as all sorts of things: trees, grapes, birds, etc.
Whatever Peter and Jude meant, it was clearly something that needed no explaining, something the people who would hear their words would understand. This makes me wonder if the word “angels” was referring to something else, the meaning of which has been lost to us. If it did actually mean fallen angels, then is this an area of truth that we have less light on today than back then? And why was that light such common knowledge?
The point of both those scriptures was not to establish new truth about fallen angels, but to give examples of the destruction of the unjust. Both use fallen angels as one example of several, including one about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha that both references share.
Since those two scriptures are part of several examples where God punished iniquity, my husband thinks the angels could be Adam and Eve having fallen in the garden of Eden. They had bodies that were superior to ours and dwelled in a habitation superior to what we see today (before they sinned).
As such, I think angelic servants always do their jobs.
I am fine if you would like to dismiss all of these thoughts, but I wanted to explain why I believe this way so you know there is some reasoning behind it. It is not a case of blind stubbornness and willfully refusing to believe truth.
The Cherub:
You will consider this a stretch, but I think that cherub could still be a king. Just another example of referring to something as something else. I don’t consider it too much of a stretch, because I have gotten so used to seeing that happen in the Old Testament.
Being a Team Player:
Did you mention taking out the “I” etc. because you think I don’t do that? I’m not upset or anything, just not sure what topic that traces to. I have no experience with this in a spiritual sense. I have rarely worked together with others who love the Lord for a common cause. I don’t know what it’s like to be in a wonderful, secure group setting with people I can really call my brothers and sisters. It is very sad, and maybe someday I’ll get to see what it’s like.
Given Much/Expected Much:
I see the scripture about those who are given much as talking only about humans. The more truth God gives us, the more is expected of us. Seen in this way, this scripture would support my belief that those who don’t hear of Jesus but have the sort of heart that they would receive Him given the chance, can still go to heaven. Not much is required because not much is given. However, if a man is trying to get to heaven by following the law, it is difficult – impossible, in fact. If he is keeping the law for his righteousness, much is required. He must keep the entire law and not offend in a single point. That is impossible. That’s why righteousness cannot be obtained by the law.
Satan/The Judgement
Would you be interested in my thoughts on Satan? I have a few. I have some areas I am strong and secure in that I might be able to contribute at some point (hopefully? *in a very meek voice* . . . I would feel really bad if nothing I offer helps you other than to make you get into the Word more), but I am pretty weak about the judgement. Like fallen angels, I haven’t dug in to know much. I’m sure it would make for a very interesting discussion.
From: Farrah
Time: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 at 02:57:36 (GMT)
Thanks for finding that! For some reason I keep thinking there was one that specifically mentioned the three days that Jesus was there.
The concept is interesting. We like to have rules and absolutes about this and that, but God is not in a box. He isn't confined and limited the way we want Him to be. He is . . . God!
From: tom donlon
Time: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 at 00:29:56 (GMT)
Hi Farrah,
We were right - there was another scripture supporting what Jake said.
As for the verse below in several translations I don't think
the Word “now” is in the Greek (or if it is implied in some tense - I don't know Greek and my Bible Works software program hasn't hinted to me about the tense - not that I would get the hint if it was there), still some translations put it in there.
Here are several translations. I just want you to see that translators differ on either
1) What the Greek means
or
2) What the Greek says
==================================================
NIV 1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
NJB 1 Peter 4:6 And this was why the gospel was brought to the dead as well, so that, though in their bodies they had undergone the judgement that faces all humanity, in their spirit they might enjoy the life of God.
NKJ 1 Peter 4:6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
NLT 1 Peter 4:6 That is why the Good News was preached to those who are now dead-- so although they were destined to die like all people, they now live forever with God in the Spirit.
NRS 1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.
===========================================================
Now, this might be a case where the verse doesn't theologically make sense to the translator so the translator adds a word to clarify it according to his own understanding.
Now, you mentioned that you didn't necessarily believe the scriptures about Ninevah and the Queen of Sheba are to be taken literally.
This gets me thinking about the judgment again - and the forms it takes - or if we can even understand the mechanics or physical (or spiritual)context of the judgment at all. . There are so many scriptures that I use to form my opinion on this topic - that I will hold off for now. The theology (and science) is quite complex. I say science because I believe God to be outside time and space - and some scriptures support this.
There are a lot of scriptures on this topic - and it gets kind of confusing and some scriptures are somewhat simplistic. Some scriptures are not meant to be a scientific explanation but rather get us part way to the truth and other scriptures carry us further along.
There are a some figurative type descriptions in the Bible. One example - an angel with wings - is not meant to show there is air in heaven - but is rather meant to in a vision give a sense of the power and capabilities of angels which don't reside in our physical dimension or universe.
But let's not get too many subjects going all at once.
Tom
From: tom donlon
Time: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 at 23:26:24 (GMT)
Farrah,
“David” - that is funny my mind corrected it to Daniel. I knew who you meant - and didn't even realize it was a mistake.
Tom
From: Farrah welovejesus@ccser.com
Time: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 at 23:20:37 (GMT)
Oh no! I said "David"!!! Not once! Not twice! But every time!! Can you believe it?? Ugh!
From: tom donlon
Time: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 at 22:51:22 (GMT)
Howdy back to you Farrah,
These scriptures talk about fallen or sinning angels.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home-- these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
Ezekiel 28:14-16 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
You wrote, “Not sure where you were going with Isaiah 40:17. I may have missed the point you were making.”
In addition to Paul calling himself “nothing” - Isaiah said “Before him all the nations are as nothing; they are regarded by him as worthless and less than nothing.”
Also Paul wanted us to realize where anything good in us comes from. It comes from God.
1 Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
I think eventually God wants us to get the “I” out of ourselves.
Indeed eventually it says in 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
------------------
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
------------------
Jake may have caught onto that scripture. I think he referred to that passage once or twice.
It is fine to see our relationship with God as “What do you want me to do God?” - and certainly I ask that question frequently. But I also see that our prayers and concerns expand toward the thoughts, concerns and consciences of others - as God would have it. Eventually we should start thinking as a “member of a team” - and Paul's prayers reflect that.
As for Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. Read the scriptures in your Bible. - I wanted to post them but I don't want to take up too much space on this forum with long passages. The scriptures start out addressing a certain King - then without warning - it is suddenly addressing a cherub that once guarded the throne of God. If you look at the passages before and after what I posted you will see what I mean.
You expressed some confusion about why God would allow a war to take place between Michael and Lucifer (or the Devil).
There is a remark in Revelation that Satan would be kept in restraint for a thousand years and that then he would have to be released for a short time.
My thought is that we don't know what prior commitments God has made to angels (spirits, powers, authorities or whatever) in the heavenly realms. Just like we have our own justice system - the angelic system may have a bunch of rules, systems and whatever that we can't possibly understand. God doesn't have to explain it all to us. God had some reason for allowing Job to suffer. The death of Jesus was a triumph in the spiritual realm for God. It could be that Satan assumed God wasn't really good and so Satan believed and taught that wickedness was acceptable. Because Satan loved wickedness - he justified it and lived in it and perhaps thought it was better or more effective than God's way.
We don't understand such things.
I just looked up angels in my Bible program and saw a bunch of verses.
So demons, are in my opinion fallen angels.
Revelation 12:7-9 uses the term “angels” several times talking about the Revelation 12:7 dragon [Revelation 12:9 devil, or Satan] and his angels.
Angelic servants don't always do their jobs. Jesus even gave a parable talking about his human servants not doing their job and getting punished depending on their level of knowledge.
So if we are also given much - much will be required of us. I don't say this to make you nervous - but so you stay focused.
And whenever we stumble God wants us to get back up again and serve him - forgetting what is behind and striving ahead for perfection.
Grace and peace to you,
(Sorry for not editing extensively - my wife has a request that I have to check out.)
Tom
From: Farrah
Time: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 at 08:31:19 (GMT)
Howdy, Tom!
I may have found the same scripture about preaching in Hell, but it seems like there is another.
It struck me as odd that Jesus would preach to deceased people. I believe that once we die, our opportunity for heaven is over. Our only chance to find God is in this life. Perhaps I should mention here that I do not believe in purgatory. However, I also believe that God can do whatever He wants, so long as it isn’t wrong. So I have been open to the possibility that Jesus did that, although I have thought it might have another meaning that I’m just not seeing.
I agree that Jake’s interpretation that it illustrates His mercy is a good point.
The part about the Men of Nineveh standing up to judge: I had not looked at that as being literal. Jesus is making a point that the people of Nineveh and the Queen sought the Lord when they had only Jonas and Solomon to tell them truth. The people Jesus was preaching to had someone far greater – Jesus, the Son of God – and yet they wouldn’t believe. I look at it as an expression. For example, if you won’t believe me that the sky is blue and I said, “Well, Bill and Bob will judge you, because they believed my son when he said the sky is blue, and you won’t believe someone [me] wiser than my son!”
Jesus had two parts: the flesh part and the God part. Both were needed for the work He came to do. When He called Himself “Son of Man” He was emphasizing the flesh part. “Son of God” emphasized His God part. When He talked about not knowing anything of Himself, I believe He was referring to the fleshly part. He was saying, “If all there is to me is flesh and blood, I know nothing. Flesh of itself knows nothing. The truth that I know is because of God.” Basically the God part was where His wisdom and power came from. They needed to realize that he wasn’t just a man, but also God.
Not sure where you were going with Isaiah 40:17. I may have missed the point you were making.
I can answer why Paul called himself the least of God’s people. He tells you in his own words:
I Cor. 15
[9] For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
[10] But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
You see? In verse 9, he says that he is the least of the apostles, because he persecuted God’s people. Paul was VERY aggressively “working for God” in a misguided way. He thought he was doing right by hunting down the followers of Jesus and killing them. That is, until Jesus revealed Himself on the road to Damascus. Once Paul realized the truth, he told his testimony everywhere. And it gave him great sorrow that he had been persecuting the Church. He felt as if he was the least of God’s people simply because he had killed and persecuted them. However, he also pointed out that he was working harder than anyone now that he knew the truth.
Gal. 1
13] For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
[14] And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
[15] But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
[16] To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Then further down:
[23] But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
[24] And they glorified God in me.
This man had good reason to be humble after what he had done. Still, he did it all in ignorance, thinking he was following God.
Just curious who you were directing the scriptures about evil being in the world to? Did you want to discuss that? I have always believed that there is evil in the world, that there are devils (bad spirits), they can influence people in a negative way, etc. There are numerous scriptures supporting that. Some of the best examples are when Jesus cast demons out of people.
It is not clear to me how you think Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 have examples of evil forces supporting or blending with people.
Wait! Where did you address fallen angels?? I may have missed it. If it is the one in Revelation, I truly believe most of Revelation to be symbolic. Remember when God gave David visions about beasts with horns and such? Then, He gave David the interpretation: The beasts were actually kings, and their horns were also kings that would rule. That’s how I view most of Revelation. Just as God gave David visions that did not have literal meanings, he also gave John the visions in Revelation. Only in Revelation, not all the meanings are spelled out for us. Some are revealed, such as the seven stars and the seven candlesticks at the end of Chapter 1. Some are pretty obvious, such as 5:5, where it mentions the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. Jesus is that Lion, and He is the only One worthy to open the book.
I definitely don’t believe it is literal when it says there was a war between the angels in chapter 12. God could snap His fingers and wipe them all out at any moment. He is not going to passively watch while His angels fight Satan’s angels. I am certain all of that is symbolic. It was very rare for God’s visions to have literal interpretations, and I don’t think Revelation is any different in that respect, especially considering an interpretation is spelled out for parts of it early on.
I apologize if I missed anything or interpreted something wrong. It was a lot to go through (as you mentioned), and I had to read through several times. I don't think I commented on your scriptures about what happens to people who have never heard. I think you and I agree on that one. I would have quoted the same verses (being a law to themselves, etc.).
From: tom donlon
Time: Monday, July 07, 2008 at 22:28:15 (GMT)
Hi Jake,
Good point on the scripture about Jesus preaching to the imprisoned spirits.
Hi Farrah, you wanted to know the scripture reference to that scripture. I found one and I am unsure if there is another.
1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
What this exactly means I am not sure, because I haven't yet been able to tie that scripture into any others to give a larger context.
There are also other scriptures that talk about the judgment and there seems to be some discussion and learning going on among those brought back to life.
For example in Matthew 12:41-42 it says, “The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here. 42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here.”
Luke chapter 11 is much like it.
Jesus admitted being powerless - apart from God.
John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
Paul called himself “nothing”.
2 Corinthians 12:11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the "super-apostles," even though I am nothing.
In Isaiah 40:17 it says, “Before him all the nations are as nothing; they are regarded by him as worthless and less than nothing.”
Now in the next passage I wanted to make one small point but I love all the scriptures around them and want to share them too.
In verse 8 Paul wrote that he was “less than the least of all God's people”. Paul managed to esteem other of “God's people” better than himself.
Ephesians 3:6-21 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. 13 I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory. 14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge-- that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. 20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
In verse 10 Paul says that “[God's] intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms”. I'll paste a bunch of scriptures farther down below that speak about Satan's current hold on the world - and that God has allowed it for a time. But the scriptures above continue saying that we should approach God with freedom and confidence - and Paul prayed prayers that are not prayed much today.
Repeating a section from above-
“I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge-- that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.”
And then Paul talked about God's power to work in us. “Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.” (That is God can do in YOU "immeasurably more than all you can ask or imagine.)
You asked about guys and pride. I don't know the answer about whether guys have more pride than women - or if it is just different pride - or if it is the same - or less. I was just thinking that Jake mentioned that Pride can come between us and God.
Isaiah in chapter 14 blends characteristics of the King of Babylon and the evil spirit giving him power.
Isaiah 14:13-14 You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."
The same thing is done with a scripture about the King of Tyre. We are given a critique of him that also blends to the wicked power supporting him - who rebelled against God.
Ezekiel 28:13-18 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. 18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.
You will have to read the surrounding scripture too - to see the literary blending of the personalities.
There are evil forces as well as God and angels. We don't know the whole story about what is going on.
2 Corinthians 4:4
NIV The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Romans 7:11
NIV For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.
1 John 5:19
NIV We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
Revelation 12:9
NIV The great dragon was hurled down-- that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
But God has let this take place - but he will not lose any of the human actors he knows will accept him - us humans who are willing to accept him - even though many are only attempting to follow the inadequate truth they have.
Romans 11:32
NIV For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 11:25
NIV I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
Romans 11:26-29 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
This scripture below in Romans has seemed odd to me before. I know about how Christians will judged by the words of Christ. Jesus said this.
But what happens regarding those who haven't heard the gospel? What if they only have the law - or only have a conscience?
I fear this may overwhelm you - but I am going to dump it out anyway - in case someone else is ready to accept it.
Romans 2:1-16 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
So Farrah, you are right about one thing (or many more) :)
When God gives us commands to “to be perfect” and do good - he isn't a fault-finding God nor is he a God who forgets our labor of love.
Hebrews 6:9-12 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case-- things that accompany salvation. 10 God is not unjust; *he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.* 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
So, don't become lazy Farrah! (The very thing you don't want to do.) I've been in a church in the past that was “cultish” too. Often, such churches have narrow definitions of sin that they want us to focus on - and we may become strong in some areas and remain weak in other areas.
I deeply apologize for slamming you with scriptures on a lot of topics. You asked a while back about fallen angels ... I just wanted to work in that topic too. So, perhaps whatever here does not benefit you - may benefit someone else - or perhaps it will benefit no one - I don't know.
From: Farrah welovejesus@ccser.com
Time: Monday, July 07, 2008 at 20:49:07 (GMT)
Hi again, Tom! Would it be possible for you to e-mail me? I would like a few words in private, if that's OK. Nothing to be concerned about, just something I would rather the whole world didn't see. If not, that's fine, too. :-)
From: Farrah welovejesus@ccser.com
Time: Monday, July 07, 2008 at 05:59:22 (GMT)
Hello, Jake!
I’m so glad you’ve been enjoying this discussion, and I think that Italian philosopher was right.
I was flabbergasted when I saw your comments about struggling with pride. Could this be something that men, in particular, are prone to?
Also, can you tell me the scripture that mentions Jesus preached in Hell after He was crucified? I remember reading it, but I can’t seem to find it.
From: Farrah welovejesus@ccser.com
Time: Monday, July 07, 2008 at 05:32:48 (GMT)
Hi back, Tom!
Your comment about many theologians’ opinion on perfection is interesting, but it doesn’t make much sense to me. Does it make sense to you? I think it would be out of Jesus’ character to command something that is impossible for the purpose of showing us we can’t. I often compare Jesus/God to a parent. I would never tell my son to do something I know is impossible for him.
In the short time I have been pondering all of this, I can feel my weaknesses rising up. I suddenly feel more embattled. I think Satan is trying to take advantage of my more relaxed attitude toward sin. I realize that I need to continue to live as though perfection is attainable. That must be my goal whether possible or not. Let me repeat this scripture I quoted earlier:
I Cor. 9
[24] Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
[25] And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
[26] I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
[27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
I need to run this race like I’m going to win, giving it my all. As such, I really like this that you said, “Also, God and Paul want a “can-do attitude” when it comes to fighting with any mistakes, errors or sins that we have.”
Besides bringing me a measure of peace on something that was always a mystery, what this discussion has done for me is to give me more grace for others who are struggling, more tolerance, and a better understanding of the “sin everyday” teaching that is so prevalent in churches.
Maybe it’s a good time to mention that I am in the process of “unlearning” doctrine. I was raised in a church where there was very little outside fellowship. It was small and cultish. I don’t like to say that, but it’s the only way to give you some idea. It has been scary for me to step out with Jesus and give up things I always took for granted as truth – things I thought were solid. At times it has seemed the world is spinning, as doctrines have been knocked out from under my feet. But Jesus has been there to catch me. He has been my constant companion, and I can only marvel at His patience and mercy. We left that church about two years ago, and my Lord is still teaching me new things.
The fact that I am willing to learn here is, in itself, almost miraculous. Sometimes I wonder if the Lord will ever lead us to another church. So far, He hasn’t. I think He knows we aren’t ready. I have my guard up incredibly high . . . Well, enough of that.
My husband has studied Calvinism a little and doesn’t have a good opinion of it. We have been impressed at their knowledge of scripture, but (if memory serves) they are of the opinion that God has already picked who is going to heaven, and there is nothing any of us can do about it. We have no choice. It is very extreme that way.
You speak often of pride and humility. I know my weaknesses, and I’ve never felt that pride is one of them. God knows how to bring me down, and He has done a good job of that. When I am aware of prideful thoughts, I rebuke them, as I do with other kinds of ungodly thoughts. I say, “I rebuke that thought in the name of Jesus,” and think about something else.
As for Phil. 4:3
Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
I have never thought much about that scripture, because to me it isn’t saying we must think of everyone else as being better. My version uses the word “esteem.” To me esteem means I should have a high regard for others, honor others, and treat them as being more important than me . . . Not because they are better or more important, but because it is the loving way to treat others. Notice it mentions strife and vainglory just before that. We shouldn’t be acting like we are better, striving for our way, or trying to get glory. I would offer others first pick of the strawberries, give others the best, I would sit in the lower seats at feasts, be respectful of others opinions, not need to be the center of attention, be happy when I lose in a game (a hard one for me, as I am fairly competitive), etc. I love being a wife, mother, and hostess. I like entertaining and making others feel welcome. I like giving gifts, and I have always been the polite type. As a result, I put others first all the time without even thinking about it. I admit I struggle a little at times with pride, like when I’m having a disagreement with Hubby and feel like I need to win.
Sorry to be using this phrase so much, but it doesn’t make sense to me for God to ask that I think others are better. I could see treating them as better, but actually thinking they are better? I am to think that a self-proclaimed devil worshiper is better than me? No, I honestly don’t see that. One of my set beliefs that I will never waver in is that God is always absolutely truthful. He would not ask us to believe a lie. I think my interpretation is more in line with other scriptures.
From: Jake Long
Time: Sunday, July 06, 2008 at 22:07:02 (GMT)
I enjoy reading the thoughts here. They have been insightful to me.
A couple of things have come to mind while I have been reading here, and I'll pass them on.
I once heard of a fifteenth Century Italian philosopher who said this (in the context of the debate aver free will and predestination):
Man is free to choose and God knows how he is going to choose.
That came to mind while I was reading the comments about Jesus knowing who a person is and how a person would choose in regard to choosing him or not.
That same discussion made me remember that between the time Jesus was crucified and the time He rose from the dead, He spent some time down in Haydes freeing many people from bondage there, people who of course had never heard of Him when they were on Earth, so that certainly show His mercy in regard to that subject.
On the Pride topic . . . No doubt pride is a tough one to beat. I have a saying that I say to myself at the start of the day. It just came to me once and I assume it came from The Holy Ghost. This is what I say: I work solely to be worthy of being in the service of Jesus.
And yet I then go out and spend most of the day being full of pride, even though I know that pride is all about me and drives out Jesus from me. I guess that's part of what the struggle of being human is all about.
On the topic of sin . . . I usually look at it as separation from God, and I usually look at it as Jesus being the only way to overcome this separation. Because Jesus (through the Holy Spirit) is in me, then God is in me. But my pride and other sinful activity keeps driving Jesus out of me. And so that's the constant struggle I'm in.
From: tom donlon
Time: Sunday, July 06, 2008 at 04:11:22 (GMT)
Hi Farrah,
I will comment on something you wrote and then I will follow up a bit on our earlier discussion so that you can continue to reflect on it.
You wrote, “What I am concerned about is that sin is outrageously rampant in churches today. I am afraid that sin has been so overemphasized, we have an epidemic of weak Christians who think perfection is so out of reach, they don’t even try.”
I believe there is a theological focus that drives this problem. There are a lot of theologians who believe that Jesus commanded us “to be perfect” only in order to make a point that “we can't be perfect”. Note Jake Long's comment below which says nothing about regeneration.
“The reason is that no Christian is good enough to get into Heaven. No Christian is good at all. No human being is good at all. That's the whole point of Christianity. We are all fallen sinners (and understanding the truth of that is very important). We are all doomed to an eternity in Hell, unless Jesus saves us. Those that he saves he takes into Heaven.”
Now Jake wasn't commenting specifically on the scriptural command to “be perfect” but he did expand his grace argument to say “That's the whole point of Christianity.” (I think there is more to Christianity than that we are sinners who need a savior - in order to get into heaven.) People often miss that the general thrust of the meaning of the word salvation is to be saved from sin and the kingdom of darkness. I hope to provide scriptures in another post at a future time. This whole concept comes as a surprise to people.
However, you are rethinking some thoughts on the definition of sin and the purpose of love so I would like to briefly continue with what may benefit you on this topic and so I don't distract your meditations on that topic.
“1 John 3:15-20 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. 16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.”
So we can sometimes have a heart that condemns us. Just the phrase “whenever our hearts condemn us” is one that I can relate to. I have set my heart at rest upon recognizing that I was showing love “with actions and in truth”.
You also mentioned that you were considering love. Jesus had an interesting parable that entwined how good we thought we were with the amount of love that we might show.
Luke 7:36-50 Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them. When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is-- that she is a sinner." Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you." "Tell me, teacher," he said. "Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?" Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled." "You have judged correctly," Jesus said. Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven-- for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little." Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
I don't know if you have as much difficulty adjusting yourself to the following scripture as I have had.
Philippians 2:3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.
Now the second part of that verse was at one time so difficult for me to do at all. I was in the habit of comparing my strengths against other peoples' weaknesses. It took at least six months of constantly refocusing on humility before I could start to do this - considering others better than myself. Even now this isn't the easiest passage for me to do. So I guess I still am somewhat self-centered. (I am refocusing again on this - don't think I am passively accepting this *sin* if it fits some terminologically accepted usage.)
There is an ancient Christian tradition of numbering “pride” into a list of seven deadly sins (I am not an expert on this list or this tradition. I'll try to remember to ask a friend in a week or two about this.)
Wisdom hates pride.
Proverbs 8:12-13 “I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion. To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.”
So, if *sin* is any deviation from God's standard of perfection then we will be beset with it. However, God didn't call us to stay put - I don't have to quote what He wants - you already put up the scriptures.
Just so you know, there is a body of Christian theology called Calvinism that has a great focus on the wickedness of man. I think their focus is a bit extreme in some regards - but if this causes some to recognize their sins and fight them - it will be good for them. If some just think they are theologically stuck as “sinners” and therefore don't live like children of God that is a problem.
Also, God and Paul want a “can-do attitude” when it comes to fighting with any mistakes, errors or sins that we have.
2 Corinthians 7:10-11 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.
Well, my wife needs to get on-line so I should get off-line.
Grace and peace to you,
tom
From: Farrah welovejesus@ccser.com
Time: Saturday, July 05, 2008 at 22:10:21 (GMT)
Tom,
Your thoughts on word definitions is very well received. It is something that I think is quite significant. Thank you for emphasizing a point that I practically dismissed in my mind as unimportant. Your comments combined with something my husband recently told me really opened my eyes. He said that Greek has many verb tenses we don’t have, which complicates translation. I believe that might help explain why Romans 7 seems almost out of place. If we read 6 and 8, we get a strong “victory over sin” message. I don’t think Paul was struggling with sin himself. I think he was speaking in the present tense to illustrate the struggle a person will have if he is attempting to be righteous by keeping a law. Remember that the old covenant revolved around laws, and the concept of grace was radically different from what these people had known for hundreds of years.
What I am concerned about is that sin is outrageously rampant in churches today. I am afraid that sin has been so overemphasized, we have an epidemic of weak Christians who think perfection is so out of reach, they don’t even try. We are to be growing in grace, not stagnating in sin. They are grossly abusing Jesus’ precious gift, using it as an umbrella for their continuous sinning. It is nice we no longer need animal sacrifices for atonement, but He did not die to make it more convenient for us to sin.
I can honestly say that most of the time I am guilt free and there is no sinful thing I am in bondage to. When something keeps ensnaring me, I get it out of my life. For example, I have a weakness for TV. I discovered that in college. When I was alone with free time it was hard not to watch it. And when something came on I knew I should not watch, it was difficult to change the channel. After failing a few times and experiencing strong conviction (something I can hardly stand), I realized that I needed to get it out of my life. As a result, we don’t watch TV. I know that not everyone has this weakness, so I must try hard not to look down on people who watch it. I must not turn my own weaknesses into a law for others.
Despite all of this, sometimes I feel bad about something and ask forgiveness right away. I am afraid to call it sin. This has bothered me at times. You may have helped me make peace with something I have struggled to understand most of my life. What you said about sin meaning different things in different places could really explain a lot. I can’t put into words how huge this is. I will be pondering it . . .
I can now leave this discussion feeling content and satisfied. I’m anxious to discuss other things, but I think someone other than me should pick the next topic!
From: Farrah welovejesus@ccser.com
Time: Saturday, July 05, 2008 at 22:07:04 (GMT)
Tom,
I had thought about putting up a reply sooner, but something told me to wait until you were finished. I’m so glad I did!
Love has been high on my mind of late. I consider it a recent revelation, actually. (Will you permit me to go off on a tangent?) Strange how something can stare me in the face all my life, and I am still seeing new light. I have known the scriptures from my youth (Doesn’t that sound familiar? *grinning*) . . . Love thy neighbor, love will cover the multitude of sins, the greatest commandment . . . I have memorized and quoted, read and reread. I have tried to love and prayed for help from above. This desire combined with a zeal (Here I could be compared to Paul before he met Jesus) to obliterate the immorality rampant in our society restrained only by my roles as wife and mother . . . And as a woman, because I’m not sure God wants women on the front lines of these battles. How to balance a raging desire to wipe out evil with love? I’m afraid love has been sadly neglected, though not intentionally.
I’ve realized that it’s not my place to bear the burdens of the world on my shoulders. Jesus already did that, and my eyes tear up even now to think of it. I can’t fix everything. My job is to show the love of Christ in my own little space. To be an example to those around me. To be joyous in my blessings and to be happy in the wonderful relationship I have with Him. It is my job to be a light. And maybe if someone sees His love in me, that person will be drawn to Jesus.
Recently, I have seen everything from the vantage point of love. From the grand and mysterious workings of the universe to the intricate details in every moment of every life. . . From the billions of planets whose distances, numbers, and size overwhelm me to the small bud on tree that blooms into a leaf to shade my eyes on a hot, summer day . . . Didn’t He create it all out of love? Just as a father delights in giving his son gifts and watching him enjoy them, doesn’t He long to spoil us? The more I learn about science that more thrilled I am. His creativity and wisdom is at a level that far surpasses my understanding. I am grateful to catch an occasional glimpse. This is my God! Isn’t He AMAZING!
Could it be possible that all the things happening in the world, when viewed through the eyes of God boil down to one thing: Ensuring each one with a heart willing to receive Him will make it? He knows exactly what it will take to bring a man to repentance. And so all the things that happen that don’t make sense, that I can’t understand, when bad things happen to good people, I now say to myself, “There could be a soul at stake.”
I have many thoughts about love. Perhaps over time I’ll share them. Thank you for reminding me what’s important. I don’t need to win any discussion or convince others I’m right. I am here to learn and be encouraged; I am here to teach and encourage.
Let me just mention some parting comments about sinning, and we can close this discussion if you like.
From: tom donlon
Time: Saturday, July 05, 2008 at 15:46:37 (GMT)
Hi Farrah,
The word “rain” and the word “sin” encompass a vast range from the hardly noticable to the overwhelming and highly destructive.
Sometimes in the New Testament the word “sinner” is used for especially bad people like when some complained that Jesus dined “with tax collectors and sinners”.
At other times just being insensitive to the conscience of someone else constitutes “sinning”.
NIV 1 Corinthians 8:1-13 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God. So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do. Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.
Another trivial usage of the word sin is in 2 Corinthians 11:7 “Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge?”
Paul in Romans mentioned that the law actually made him aware of more sins. He spoke about coveting.
Romans 7:7-11 For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.
Jesus set a standard of righteousness much higher than that of the ten commandments. You have memorized many of his teachings ... so I don't have to go on too much.
Hebrews 12:1 NIV Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the *sin that so easily entangles*, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
See we are not “dead” to sin as if it is inactive and not pulling on us. The pull it has on us varies in part depending on how focused we are on serving God and doing his will and it varies according to the environment we are in.
1 Corinthians 15:33 Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character."
Still, the greatest commandments are to love God and love our neighbor.
Matthew 22:36-40 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
The ten commandments were “thou shalt not” commandments. Jesus focused on commandments that we have to do. This is harder to do perfectly - yet we must walk that route. This scripture is a fabulous bit of reasoning.
James 2:8-13 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you *sin* and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. 12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!
What James is saying is that just like we must refrain from BOTH murdering AND committing adultery to fulfill the standard old law --- similarly according to the “royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"” - we must also NOT pick and choose how to love our neighbors as ourselves. We are to love everybody ... not just the rich and well-dressed. Still, God has given each of us our own set of responsibilities and priorities.
1 Timothy 5:8 If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
And Jesus also had priorities (although he was flexible and did come around and grant this womans' request.)
Matthew 15:23-24 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." 24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
We should keep in mind that Jesus had so much grace that sinners were comfortable around him. He came to save the sinners (the sick) and did not come to save the righteous (the well). We are not as strong as Jesus and probably can't go save them in the same way. And we have to watch ourselves more so we don't fall. However, we should keep in mind that the “righteous Pharisees” and the religious leaders were Jesus biggest enemies.
1 Peter 4:8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
Have we covered this topic enough?
Tom
From: tom donlon
Time: Friday, July 04, 2008 at 12:22:25 (GMT)
I am totally with you Farrah,
You wrote,
----------------------------------
James 4:11
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Let me make it clear that I don’t believe a mistake is sin. We can still make mistakes, and since we are tied to these human, weak bodies, we WILL make many mistakes. We will sometimes need to tell people we are sorry. And I tell Jesus I am sorry if I feel bad about anything. Truly I can’t live with a guilty conscience.
Sometimes I think there are lots of people who believe like me but just have a different definition of sin. It doesn’t bother me like it used to. What matters is whether you really love and know Jesus. I will say this though: Anyone who is in bondage to something that is clearly sinful…and I don’t mean raising your voice on occasion…I’m talking about something that really convicts like pornography addiction, that person can and must get victory. Jesus is not suspended on the cross so that we can sin all we want and be pardoned.
----------------------------------------------------
Farrah, it almost sounds as if you are working under a different definition of sin than the one given by James. Mistakes that come from our weak nature ... are sin because what ever does not come from faith is sin.
In the scriptures below Jesus assumed we would have a problem with sin.
Matthew 6:12
NIV Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
Luke 11:2-4 2 He said to them, "When you pray, say: "'Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread. 4 Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation. '"
I will put in the verse below because a certain Greek word is often not understood.
Hebrews 10:26-27 If we deliberately* keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Deliberately means "on of what is done without compulsion voluntary, spontaneous; substantivally kata. of one's own free will, i.e. willingly, freely".
In this passage "Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers-- not because you must, but because you are willing*, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;".
The shepherds aren't to serve the flock just because it is their job. They are supposed to be "willing" such is the type of sin -willing- that Hebrews condemns.
1 John 5:16-17 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
You see all wrongdoing is "sin".
Romans 14:23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
(It is not suggesting eternally condemned it is talking about being condemned by our conscience.)
There are scriptures in John that talk about "continues to sin" as a lifestyle - ongoing habits being embraced without concern. But God hates sin and wants us to hate it.
There a few other angles that I don't have time to get into right now.
One angle is that sometimes those who are righteous look down on others and (in the case of a Pharisee in a parable) they thank God they are not like other sinners. And sometimes someone else can be so beset by sin that he may cry out “God have mercy on me - a sinner”. Jesus said that the tax-collector in his parable whent away justified rather than the other.
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
James said in James 3:2 “We all stumble in many ways.”
I suppose worse behaviors can be called “sin” and less worse can be termed “stumbling.” However, we are dealing with definitions. Like when is rain just rain. Or when does is it a drizzle? When is a rain a downpour or a deluge? We don't have to overanalyze the word sin ... because again according to the definition of scripture we certainly are all beset with sins of some sort.
I've run out of time for now. I hope you can better see where I am coming from. I totally agree about the war we are in with sin. And I totally agree that those who aren't in this war are not now connected with God as they ought to be.
Outa time - I can't even edit this much - gotta run
tom
From: Farrah welovejesus@ccser.com
Time: Friday, July 04, 2008 at 08:48:24 (GMT)
Tom,
Please allow me to quote some of my own scriptures.
John 8
[10] When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
[11] She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
My Lord would not ask the impossible.
James 4:7,8
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
To try and be both sinner and saint at once is double minded.
James 1:14-17
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
I don’t believe in different kinds of sin. Sin is willful disobedience. Sin is choosing to do wrong. We always have a choice, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, which He promised to send, we can always choose right.
People think that the mere fact a bad thought enters their mind they are sinning. Sin comes after lust has conceived. Satan is going to bombard us, but we need to resist, as quoted in James above. Then Satan will flee. If a bad thought comes, dismiss it immediately. Do not dwell on it; do not entertain it. If it is dismissed, then it does not become sin.
James 4:11
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Let me make it clear that I don’t believe a mistake is sin. We can still make mistakes, and since we are tied to these human, weak bodies, we WILL make many mistakes. We will sometimes need to tell people we are sorry. And I tell Jesus I am sorry if I feel bad about anything. Truly I can’t live with a guilty conscience.
Sometimes I think there are lots of people who believe like me but just have a different definition of sin. It doesn’t bother me like it used to. What matters is whether you really love and know Jesus. I will say this though: Anyone who is in bondage to something that is clearly sinful…and I don’t mean raising your voice on occasion…I’m talking about something that really convicts like pornography addiction, that person can and must get victory. Jesus is not suspended on the cross so that we can sin all we want and be pardoned.
Heb. 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
I do not believe it is right to ask forgiveness repetitiously, having no idea what you did wrong. I ask: How long do you think you can keep from sinning? An hour? If an hour, why not a day? If a day, why not a week?
1 John 2:1-6
[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
I am faithful to God, because I love Him. I am faithful to my husband because I love him. There is a philosophy today that a married person can still look at, lust over, and think about someone other than his/her spouse. I don’t believe that. I look the other way. I don’t think about anyone else. Why? Because of love. I show God I love Him by obedience.
I am interested in how you would interpret this:
I John 3
6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
[7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
What does it mean to be born of God?
John 3
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
When I gave my all to Jesus, He put His seed into my heat. His seed is pure and holy. His seed will not yield sin.
This isn’t confidence in myself. It is a belief that the Word of God is true.
I Cor. 9
[26] I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
[27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
If you read through all that, you deserve to be commended! :-)
From: Farrah welovejesus@ccser.com
Time: Friday, July 04, 2008 at 08:46:17 (GMT)
Tom,
This post is in reply to your scriptures.
You assumed correctly about my interpretation of Romans 7. The key scripture for me there is:
[24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
He is asking how to be delivered and immediately gives the answer. Deliverance is at hand through Jesus! The flesh sins, but the Word is clear that we are to crucify our flesh.
Gal. 2
[17] But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
[18] For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
[19] For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
[20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
We must be crucified before the Holy Spirit can come in and lead. If self is crucified, it will not get in the way by sinning. Something crucified is dead and inactive. This is what Jesus wants of us. To yield completely to Him. He gave His all. We must do the same right now, in this life.
Ironically, I see 1 Corinthians 10:13 as a promise I can stand on that will ensure I don’t have to sin. It tells me that God will not permit any temptation to come before me that I am too weak to resist.
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
As for verse 12: “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.” I am appalled at the things these Corinthians were doing. Reading the previous scriptures I see idolatry, fornication, tempting Christ, and murmuring mentioned. These people were being warned, because they were clearly WAY out of line. This is not meant to be a warning to a mature Christian who is well established in the Lord.
I see your point about this one:
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
However, verse 8 presumes unconfessed sin as seen in verse 9. If I have no sin, then I have no unconfessed sin. Verse 10 is for someone who thinks they have never sinned. I don’t say that I never sinned. I did sin before I gave my all to Jesus. I confessed, He forgave, and there is no more to be forgiven or confessed.
James 4 has a good warning for people more caught up in what they want than what God wants. But you must not interpret every single warning in the Word as applying to every Christian at every moment. There are many warnings that do not currently apply to me or you. For example, I am not fornicating (and I hope you aren’t!), so warnings pertaining to fornication to not apply to me.
You are a delightful person to have a discussion with. Don’t worry about chasing me away. There is nothing I enjoy more than a good chat about scripture or the Lord. He has been good to me!
From: tom donlon
Time: Thursday, July 03, 2008 at 22:39:22 (GMT)
Farrah Braileanu,
I appreciate your comments and also how you kindly and humbly express yourself in debates. It gets especially tough when people are mean or dishonest to you. To answer kindly while making your point to someone being rude to you is a challenge! People often don't realize how difficult it is until they are under fire.
If you don't mind I will follow up a point that Don made. His point was correct and I think you realize it ... but we have to be careful of our terminology and also we shouldn't overrate the capacity of humans (such as ourselves) to do good nor should we be overly confident about our ability not to fall.
I'll put in a few scriptures, since that is what is going to convince you - not my words.
This first scripture - I can understand that you can see it differently ... perhaps it could be read that this only applies to those not yet led by the spirit ... but at times we humans get on automatic pilot and we miss perfection - even if we have the spirit of God.
Romans 7:14-25 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do-- this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 ¶ So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God-- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
The next scripture is a general warning not to be overconfident.
1 Corinthians 10:12-13 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! 13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
This scripture may make you want to crawl into hole - but don't! We certainly want you around! The larger context (outside the scripture I am quoting) does in part support the notion of living a victorious life.
1 John 1:8-10 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
So we never get to a point where we are “without sin”. You see there are many levels of sin. One type of sin is active and aggressive - it hurts people. Another type of sin is a “sin of omission”.
In the next scripture people get so wrapped up in self interests like making money they forget that God puts us here to do good and we should be willing to change plans if God gives us an important "target of opportunity". For us to have a mindset that we are going to “make money” may mean that we aren't paying attention to our heavenly master.
James 4:13-17 Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.
AND
James 2:8-9 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.
So, I have the greatest respect for your desire to be perfect. We will fall. We won't make it. But, “Aim for perfection,”.(2 Corinthians 13:11)
Still, there is a relative sense of “perfection” it is a point on a compass ... the direction we run toward.
Paul wrote in Philippians 3:10-17 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. 15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained. 17 Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you.
I love your zeal Farrah and let us pray for each other that we will please God and lead victorious lives!
From: Tom Donlon
Time: Thursday, July 03, 2008 at 21:37:20 (GMT)
Jake Long,
You wrote,
---------------------------------------------------------
"As for all the people who have never heard of Jesus . . . . the Book of Revelations is clear on that. When Jesus returns, all of those people also return and then they all get a final chance to learn of Jesus and to make their choice after that. If they accept Jesus then, they go to Heaven. If they do not, they go to hell for eternity. It's the last chance.
As for others who heard of Jesus before they died but rejected him . . . some readers interpret the same passage of Revelations to say they too get a chance then but other readers say that is wishful thinking and the only ones who get the second chance then are the ones who had never heard of Jesus during his life."
--------------------------------------------------------
This is a merciful idea and God is merciful, but it has two serious flaws. If God himself presents the gospel and only wants us to "accept it" then we end up first with a logical problem. The evidence from God will be overwhelming and everyone would "accept it" - if just to save their skin ... whether or not they embrace the pursuit of righteousness and holiness.
The second major problem is that this isn't taught in the gospels.
In the parable of the sheep and the goats Jesus says, “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’”
AND
“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Their fate isn't decided by a “Hey, All I gotta do is believe!?? --- and even though I don't care about anyone but myself --- sure I'll take your gift of eternal life!”
Also, read the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man wasn't presented with the gospel in a way for him to accept it. It was too late. He didn't listen to the truth he had in his lifetime - not even listen a little. He blindly ignored the plight of his distressed impoverished companion that lay outside his door. (You know the passage.)
Abraham told him regarding his brothers (who the dead rich man wanted to avoid similar torment), “They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.”
AND: “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
So, if THIS PERSON does not hear the gospel it won't matter much because he is in the habit of rejecting truth and doing his own thing. He will still be selfish even if he hears about someone rising from the dead - JESUS.
For people that want to follow light ... the truth ... the gospel may make a big impact on their lives.
The scriptures are clear that Jesus will judge the living and the dead. He doesn't have to wait to see what we will say if he explains the gospel to us. He already knows us.
As for those that “Heard the gospel in this life” Jesus, too will judge them fairly. It is not the unpardonable sin to "speak against Jesus" if you don't know what you are doing. Saul of Tarsus was shown mercy because he “acted in ignorance and unbelief”.
Tom
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Thursday, July 03, 2008 at 16:37:34 (GMT)
Hi Jake,
My quote came from Tom Donlon who sent it to me in an email when he was asking about using my discussion page. I thought I'd post it in order to get things started and get people oriented. As you say no Christian is good enough and the key is what you really want. If you really want to be perfect, follow Jesus and let him do surgery on your soul to strip away your sinful nature.
Don
From: Farrah Braileanu welovejesus@ccser.com
Time: Thursday, July 03, 2008 at 03:35:30 (GMT)
Jake,
I enjoyed your reply. It made me smile. Please don't stop using "myraid." It's a good word, and I knew what it meant. Makes me wonder what comes to mind when I visualize it . . . Stars. A million stars scattered through space, but I like the idea of a spring bubbling up.
What I think threw me off was using homosexuality as an immediate example. Not sure I can explain why I took it that way, but "myraid" certainly wasn't the culprit.
Thank you for expaining yourself. I understand why you picked that example now. As for me, the goat and sheep analagy doesn't have a "myraid" of possible meanings. Only one, and that is the one I stated.
From: Farrah Braileanu welovejesus@ccser.com
Time: Thursday, July 03, 2008 at 03:19:32 (GMT)
Don,
That's very disappointing but not surprising. My belief that a Christian can live a victorious life is rare and usually vehemently resisted, but I have met a few who believe it.
You have an excellent point about humility. I agree that could become a problem for someone with my beliefs. However, God is able to abase, and He has been doing that to me lately.
I find that if I maintain a close relationship with Jesus, I praise Him more . . . all day long. Praise helps keep pride at bay, because then the focus is on Him, which is where it should be. :-)
I'm pretty direct and blunt about my beliefs in writing, which is proving to be a challenge lately, as I tend to make people angry when debating over the net. It's an area I sincerely want to improve in. If I ever come across as rude or mean-spirited, please forgive me and let me know. Maybe I can get some practice here.
From: Jake Long
Time: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 at 21:58:05 (GMT)
Don
I have a comment on this statement of yours.
"Will only Christians enter the kingdom (no matter how "bad"
>they are - and will all unbelievers be eternally separated from God
>no matter how "good" they are?
To me the key phrase there is, "no matter how "good" they are?". The reason is that no Christian is good enough to get into Heaven. No Christian is good at all. No human being is good at all. That's the whole point of Christianity. We are all fallen sinners (and understanding the truth of that is very important). We are all doomed to an eternity in Hell, unless Jesus saves us. Those that he saves he takes into Heaven.
Whether or not any single person is saved by Jesus or not, only Jesus knows. But Jesus isn't taking anybody into Heaven unless they are.
The Gospel of John talks about how God is within Jesus and Jesus is within God, an interpenatration on a spiritual level. And then it talks about the subsequent step where the spirit of Jesus then enters into the spirit of a man and the man's spirit then enters into the spirit of Jesus, another interpenetration on a spiritual level. Because God is within Jesus and Jesus is within the individual man, then God is within the individual man through Jesus. And then when the individual man dies, because God through Jesus is in him on a spiritual level, the man then goes to Heaven.
That passage in John made things very clear to me so I am passing it on here in case it makes things clear for anyone else.
I've probably said about all I have to say on the subject.
From: Jake Long
Time: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 at 21:31:13 (GMT)
Farrah,
In answer to your me you made this comment:
"Jake,
I don't understand how you could take that scripture to mean homosexuals and heterosexuals. There are many hetersexuals that are very evil and would not be called God's sheep. Homosexuality is a repulsive sin to be sure, but I think there are other abominations that evoke an intense wrath from God. One is idol worship. You see idol worship mentioned all over the Old Testament, and God wiped nations out for it. "
And my response to you is that *I agree with you completely*.
I obviously wasn't clear in what I said, and I implied something I didn't mean to imply.
What I meant to say was that homosexuality is *one* of *many* abominations that would be goats.
In The Revelation, when Jesus comes back he immediately kills half of the people and does so in horrific ways. Those that he immediately kills are the goats he refers to here in this parable. I had never caught the connection between the two verses before, so I feel this is an insightful experience for me. Thank You.
I used the word "myriad", which was a bad choice. I personally just like the way it sounds so I use it a lot but usually only when thinking to myself. But few other people use it and basically it's an old archaic word. That word was the problem. It means "countless", "ten thousand". But hardly anybody uses the word so most people don't know what I mean when I use it.
This is what I said:
"The parable of the sheep and the goats is an analogy including *myriad* references, i.e. many different references are analogous to the goats.
One analogy is homosexuals. Homosexuals will be separated off with the goats and will be destroyed and damned to an eternity of Hell."
Anyway, it was a mistake to use a word that most people don't use and that I usually only use when thinking to myself -- again because I just like the sound of it (reminds me of ten thousand drops of water bubbling up out of a mountain spring).
So again, I agree with you completely.
One reason I used the example of homosexuality was because banning homosexual marriage was the main topic of the day over at the HUCPAC site where I got this link. Working to stop homosexual marriage won the poll over there and now will be the main focus of what HUCPAC does, so I thought it was an appropriate example.
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 at 19:41:32 (GMT)
Hi again Farrah,
I need to add that while Christians on Earth are not perfect, God also sees us in the future where we are perfect so from that perspective you could say we are already perfect. But again I think for now it is important for God to keep us humble.
Don
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 at 19:22:10 (GMT)
Hi Farrah,
When I said people need to be perfect for Heaven I mean when people really get there, for now Christians are not perfect although we will be improving throughout our lifetimes. I think at least one good reason why God does not make Christians perfect right away is that we run the risk of becoming proud and thinking of ourselves as a whole lot better than those other people who are not saved. When a bit of our sinful nature surfaces it humbles us.
Don
From: Farrah Braileanu welovejesus@ccser.com
Time: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 at 06:39:19 (GMT)
Jake,
I don't understand how you could take that scripture to mean homosexuals and heterosexuals. There are many hetersexuals that are very evil and would not be called God's sheep. Homosexuality is a repulsive sin to be sure, but I think there are other abominations that evoke an intense wrath from God. One is idol worship. You see idol worship mentioned all over the Old Testament, and God wiped nations out for it.
From: Farrah Braileanu welovejesus@ccser.com
Time: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 at 06:22:48 (GMT)
Oops! That last comment was by me. Forgot to sign in!
From: anonymous
Time: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 at 06:20:05 (GMT)
Tom,
I think much of Revelation is symbolic. In other words, there are many things written there I don't take literally. One is the fallen angels. That has never made sense to me. Why would angels rebel? They are God's servants and do what they are told. Men have a choice, angels don't. That's the way I see it, anyway. Some things I will probably never understand until after I die and meet Jesus face to face. And even then, it will probably be so amazingly awesome, I won't care about knowing such things! :-)
I am not nearly as optimistic as you on the number of humans going to heaven.
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Mat. 7:13,14
"Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it." Isa. 5:14
Concerning those who don't hear: I believe that God is fair and just. Whatever happens, it will be as it should be. No one will be able to accuse God of being unfair. I also believe God loves each and every person far beyond what we can imagine. He doesn't want people to go to hell. I think He can tell by a person's heart whether they would have accepted Him even if they never heard. If they have the kind of heart that would have accepted Him given the opportunity, they will go to heaven. For example, the blood of Jesus was not available to Abraham, but if it had been, Abraham would have gotten saved. He was saved by faith rather than by the blood of Jesus...
The Word says concerning Abraham:
"He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." Rom 4:22-22
God must look at us and see righteousness, or we will not be permitted to enter heaven. Before Jesus, that righteousness was by faith. Now, it is by being washed in the blood of the only perfect sacrifice, after which we can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, Who leads us down a path free of sin.
From: Farrah Braileanu welovejesus@ccser.com
Time: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 at 05:45:11 (GMT)
Don,
You mention perfection, and I must turn my interest there for a moment. I'm intrigued. It's rare to hear anyone today talk about perfection today. I believe that it is not only possible but necessary for God's people to be sinless. In fact, I believe one of the reasons for the horrible things happening in churches (molestation, adultery, etc.) is almost everyone believes we must continue to sin after receiving Jesus, that He has no power to help us stop sinning, that we will be in bondage...chained to our weaknesses and slaves to temptation until the day we die. I don't believe it. If Jesus makes me free, I am free indeed! I was a sinner, but not anymore! I'm a saint now!
From: tom donlon
Time: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 at 00:48:49 (GMT)
Farrah Braileanu,
In the book of Revelation it suggests that a third of the angels followed Satan (Revelation 12:4 and Revelation 1:20). I assume the other two-thirds stayed in good graces with God.
What percentage of humans do you think will be with God through eternity?
Some parables lead me to just guess a half ... but an analogy with the angels might lead me to think two-thirds? I don't know.
Matthew 25 does not lead me to think that we have to know Jesus for him to know us. The sheep and the goats were oblivious to the parable of the sheep and the goats. If they had the scripture memorized they would have no need to ask the question, "when did we see you hungry... thirsty... a stranger, ... naked, ... sick or in prison ....
There are some scriptures that suggest that God will extend grace beyond the realm of those whose who "heard".
1 Timothy 4:10
NIV (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
It is dangerous for us to try to determine who actually "heard".
Romans 10:17-18 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."
They heard something.
Acts 14:14-17 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: "Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. In the past, he let all nations go their own way. Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy."
They heard some "testimony". God's kindness reaches people who don't hear the gospel. This message of "kindness" might be loud for some or it might be weak. None of circumstances are identical. But what we hear we are to some extent responsible for.
On another day, I will make some notes about what Jesus said about the responsibility that comes from hearing. .... and even where Jesus suggested that not hearing him precludes people from being guilty. (Keep in mind that Jesus is creator and we each get some message of what we should be doing .... but I won't go too in depth right now.)
Tom
From: tom donlon
Time: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 at 23:53:39 (GMT)
Don,
I am challenging you to think deeper.
You wrote, "I would say the simple answer is that anyone who wants a
relationship with God more than having things their own way will get
the relationship with God."
The scripture though also says, Romans 10:20 "And Isaiah boldly says, 'I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.'"
For everyone:
The Parable of the sheep and the goats it reminds me of these Proverbs.
Proverbs 14:31
NIV He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.
.
Proverbs 17:5
NIV He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker; whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished.
Proverbs 19:17
NIV He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done.
[B]Here is the parable of the sheep and the goats.[/B]
Matthew 25:31-46
NIV “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
From: tom donlon
Time: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 at 23:45:51 (GMT)
Sorry, Jake!
I realized my son hit the enter button. And while I was composing my apology you submitted your comment. So I wasn't calling your comment incoherent ... but the anonymous one below yours.
You always (at least at the Huck Pac site) talk about homosexuality why is that? Have you first or second hand experience with sexually vicious people?
From: tom donlon
Time: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 at 23:22:53 (GMT)
Sorry folks about the incoherent comment below. My six year old son was on my lap goofing around hitting cap lock and number lock buttons and I guess he hit the enter button.
From: Jake Long
Time: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 at 23:21:59 (GMT)
The parable of the sheep and the goats is an analogy including myriad references, i.e. many different references are analogous to the goats.
One analogy is homosexuals. Homosexuals will be separated off with the goats and will be destroyed and damned to an eternity of Hell.
Another analogy is a nation that gives itself over to homosexuals and allows them to marry, more specifically those within the nation that allowed it and those within the nation who were pushing for it.
People who have the Holy Ghost in them have no dificulty understanding the meaning of the words of Jesus. Those who are incapable of having the Holy Ghost in them will not understand. That's there problem. As Jesus often said, "For those who have ears."
As for whether the serial killer who professed to be a Christian will go to Heaven . . . . Only God knows. But it's good to keep this in mind. We all are sinners. None of us will get to Heaven on our own merit. Our sins will keep us all out of Heaven unless Jesus intervenes fo us after we have repented for our sins and taken him as our Savior. So if the serial killer converted to Christianity years after his last killing (which is the case with the one you mentioned) and he was sincere in the eyes of Jesus, then probably so, but that's certainly not my call to make.
As for all the people who have never heard of Jesus . . . . the Book of Revelations is clear on that. When Jesus returnss, all of those people also return and then they all get a final chance to learn of Jesus and to make their choice after that. If the accept Jesus then, they go to Heaven. If they do not, they go to hell for eternity. It's the last chance.
As for others who heard of Jesus before they died but rejected him . . . some readers interpret the same passage of Revelations to say they too get a chance then but other readers say that is wishful thinking and the only ones who get the second chance then are the ones who had never heard of Jesus during his life.
That's probably all I have to say on the subject.
The main point I'm intending to make is that the verse you put forth to argue over is a verse that says, among other things, homosexuals and those who push for homosexual marriage are goats and when Jesus returns they will be treated as Jesus says the goats will be treated. Damned and doomed.
That's it.
From: anonymous
Time: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 at 23:16:56 (GMT)
From: Farrah Braileanu
Time: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 at 07:18:56 (GMT)
I have always thought it to mean His people and not His people. His people are written in the book of life and are scattered all over the world. I'm one of His people. What do you think?
OK Farrah, I agree with you that those whose are written in the "book of life" will be with with Jesus. ... and I agree that they are scattered all over the world. Still, we should see what Jes
One perplexing question if we recognize
would say the simple answer is that anyone who wants a
relationship with God more than having things their own way will get
the relationship with God.
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 at 18:39:52 (GMT)
Hi Tom and everyone else who may be hanging around. Tom is interested in discussing this:
>I am eager to discuss the the nature, scope and basis of God's
>judgment. Will Jews, Gentiles, Christians all be judged the same
>way? Will only Christians enter the kingdom (no matter how "bad"
>they are - and will all unbelievers be eternally separated from God
>no matter how "good" they are?
>
>Do you believe Ghandi is going to hell and the BTK killer (who went
>to church) is going to heaven?
I would say the simple answer is that anyone who wants a
relationship with God more than having things their own way will get
the relationship with God. People who put a higher priority on
having things their own way won't get the relationship with God. It
really does not matter how bad you've been. God designed the world
and each person's world so that you/we get a close up look at what
we/they are really like. If after seeing what we are really like and
what other sinners are like we want to give up sinning God will be
happy to take us in no matter what we did. Of course doing a lot of
good deeds is not enough to get you to heaven, you do have to be
perfect. Only God/Jesus can make you fit for heaven and He will
only do that for you if you REALLY want it. If you were not perfect
heaven would not be heavenly, it would be Earth all over again.
Don Tveter, don@dontveter.com
From: Farrah Braileanu
Time: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 at 07:18:56 (GMT)
I have always thought it to mean His people and not His people. His people are written in the book of life and are scattered all over the world. I'm one of His people. What do you think?
From: tom donlon
Time: Monday, June 30, 2008 at 19:39:36 (GMT)
Does the Parable of the sheep and the goat pertain only to Christians? Or should we accept that this is how Jesus will judge the nations?
Any thoughts?
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Thursday, June 26, 2008 at 16:58:52 (GMT)
I just noticed short posts have been disappearing due to a problem within a file. Let's see if this works ...
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Monday, May 07, 2007 at 21:03:24 (GMT)
The html simply calls up a perl script I wrote myself.
From: aarst tut.by
Time: Monday, May 07, 2007 at 02:00:15 (GMT)
higuys!What yourblog powered by?
From: Andeo Bianco
Time: Friday, November 10, 2006 at 00:55:19 (GMT)
Nice site! I've enjoyed visiting it. Thanks for ur work.
From: Don don@dontveter.com
Time: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 at 16:34:31 (GMT)
I need to add that the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah were kind of confusing to people at the time. To some of the religious leaders back then it appeared as if there were two Messiahs, one who suffers and one who returns to free Israel from her earthly enemies. The ones who really thought the Messiah would really free Israel from the Romans were disappointed in Jesus particularly when he declared himself to be the Son of God, thereby making himself equal with God. That called for the death penalty.
From: Don don@dontveter.com
Time: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 at 16:27:10 (GMT)
In Old Testament times there were people who were predicting the future. The ones who were really speaking for God had their short-term predictions come true. The ones who did not have their short-term predictions come true did not end up in the Bible. I think this is a more precise way to say it and I'm going to go back and correct my text to make it right.
Jesus was crucified by the Jews because 1) he offended the religious leaders by pointing out how evil the religious leaders were. 2) Because many people were following Jesus instead of the religious leaders and the religious leaders were therefore jealous. 3) Probably the majority of Jews at the time thought they were pretty nice people because they were simply following the various laws of Moses, so they were looking for a military/political leader to free them from the Romans. What they really needed was liberation from sin, not liberation from the Romans.
From: Majid
Time: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 at 21:43:57 (GMT)
Hi Don
I am a muslim and I am sure you must be aware that we musim have hi respect for Jesus as one of mighty prophet of God. My comment here are not concerning jesus but the validation of Bible, the logic you have used to validates Bible does'nt make sense to me, " False prophets never got their writings into the Bible, they got stoned to death when their predictions failed."
We must not forget that the Jews have blood of many true prophets of God on their hands. If your formula is correct, "a murdered prophet was a false prophet". Then what would you say about Jesus, he was crucified, and charge was false calim of prophethood, and not to forget, according to Jews his prediction did fail.
Regards
Majid UK
From: Don don@dontveter.com
Time: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 at 20:30:52 (GMT)
Hi Harmony,
Thanks for your comments.
I think there is a fair amount of evidence for the eyewitness
accounts of Jesus' miracles. And there are Bible prophecies
that have come true and there are many other prophecies where
you can see that they are on the verge of coming true so this
validates the whole Bible. False prophets never got their
writings into the Bible, they got stoned to death when their
predictions failed.
Second, I think the Biblical explanation is logical within
itself. 1) God creates people with free will who are free
to love him or not 2) Some people don't care for God and his
rules at first but given some time on Earth they get sick of
a sinful world, a world without God and WANT something better.
3) God gives them what they want. Can you find a more
logical explanation of what's going on here on Earth (given
that there is a God, if you're an atheist I guess it
won't work for you.)
Third, there is no doubt that Christianity has a sort of
intuitive appeal for Christians. They WANT the whole thing
to be true. They LIKE to believe in it. It is as if they
sense a better future out there for them and for everyone
else and they want to be part of it. Historical accounts
and proofs are not really that necessary although as I say
there is a fair amount of evidence for them. Would you
like the Christian message to be true? Some do, some
don't.
"Islamists" is a word that has been used for the Moslems
who want to take over the whole world politically and who
are only too happy to use violence and terror in their
war against unbelievers so I think it is pretty appropriate.
From: Harmony kleptonic@gmail.com
Time: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 at 17:47:00 (GMT)
First off, I would like to commend you. You have - as your mission, it seems - put forth a great standpoint on what Christianity is all about with a very sensible interpretation of the Bible. Your site is pretty coherent, organized and well written. As far as Christian evangelism, I'm quite impressed.
However, there is still no way that I would ever convert to Christianity. What you fail to address is the key to believing. You have offered no reason on why that I should believe the Bible, (and such arrives Earth as the trial period, Jesus Christ and all the rest.) Your interpretation of the world is through the given fact that the Bible is true, and what is written in it is based on fact. Thinking scientifically, or even just plain logically, that's a little foolish. There is no way to prove that Christ turned water to wine, and all we have is someone else writing down that he did. If I'd been there, I'd have converted in a second and taken Jesus as my personal saviour.
But we come back to the fundamental issue that I wasn't there. And it's pretty hard to prove that there was such an occurrence. The Bible tells you and I that it happened. You believe it - I don't, because to me, the Bible has no more weight than any other book.
That's the true belief in the faith because I don't believe anything that the Bible says has more truth than what the Egyptians wrote. It means nothing to me, other than a book that written by a series of old dead men thousands of years ago.
That's the faith, and that's the part that you accept when you accept Christ.
ps.
"Let in unrepentant Islamists and they will go around crashing planes into buildings."
While you may be completely disregarding them in your opinion that they are all going to hell, I am personally against ignorance and hate on Earth and would like you to change this phrase around a little. 'Unrepentant Islamists' generally have very little to do with the crashing of planes into buildings. You don't say "Southern Christians" when referring to the KKK, so don't refer to extreme Arab terrorists as Islamic. There are millions of Muslims included in that statement you have just generalized them into all crazy plane crashing people. And "islamist" isn't exactly a word - it'd be better to use Muslim.
From: anonymous
Time: Saturday, August 07, 2004 at 09:58:30 (GMT)
Hello,
May I recommend the URL
http://www.newphysics2000.org
for a deeper view on physics?
It explains Physics from the Schroedinger assumption:
Matter as wave (energy) phenomenon.
The good thing, it is not just speculation, the calculations are offered as FORTRAN programs. The result: The universe is a monolith
of rest photons and energy photons.
Nothing more but also: NOTHING LESS!
Light, so to speak.
What is not said in the pages mentioned above are the philosophical (theological) implications: Seemingly Schrödinger was totally right in assuming that eastern religions should be taken more in account. The Universe is ONE gestaltic whole.
Unfortunately, Schroedinger did not complete his work. This has been done now and is documented in the URL.
Kind regards, and Thank You for your GREAT WEBSITE!!
Hermann Ruwwe
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Saturday, February 14, 2004 at 19:54:23 (GMT)
Let me add two relevant and interesting links:
http://www.gospelthemes.com/lovers.htm
http://www.new-life.net/celebt1.htm
As with all interpretations and opinions I don't flat out believe
anybody however these opinions are interesting and worth thinking
about because they run counter to the popular image you typically
get from Christians that anything that is fun must be a sin.
Don
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Saturday, February 14, 2004 at 15:34:00 (GMT)
>Thanks for the replies. I will read up on Zechariah. I don't know
>where I got these ideas but I generally thought that drinking alcohol,
>eating meat, and sex were bad. Maybe I read one too many accounts of
>the end of the decadent Roman empire. I used to think that maybe the
>Romans were that way because they took those three vices to the extreme
>but even if I enjoy moderately drinking alcohol, eating meat and sex,
>doesn't it make me the same? In my mind I would want to do all that
>much more if given the free rein. But I force restraint on myself. I
>shouldn't qualify for heaven then I think. I would still have the urges
>- which are only under control while I am on Earth because I am afraid
>of the consequences.
I know where you the got the ideas. You've heard Christians and maybe
Christian ministers preach against drunkenness and lust. And
vegetarians blame the world's problems on people eating meat. Often
times listening to Christians you will get an unbalanced view of things
because they do give you an unbalanced view because they are either 1)
not careful about what they say or 2) they ARE unbalanced in their
beliefs.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with physical pleasures, they are
gifts from God designed to make us happy and then we should praise the
Lord for them and that makes us even happier, so they can be a good deal
all around. Often times however people simply look to the pleasures
alone to make them happy and the problems with that are 1) they aren't
enough to really, fully satisfy you and you eventually end up feeling
empty and 2) you can become addicted.
It is given in the New Testament that there is wine "of a different
kind" in Heaven. Presumably it will taste better (everything should be
better) but I would guess that it does not have any serious
psychological or physical side effects.
Because large amounts of alcohol will cause problems and addiction
preachers often preach against it altogether but Jesus drank wine
and He was perfect. Some Christians decide they are going to be more
perfect than Jesus (not possible, it is pride and arrogance to think
you can be) and not touch any alcohol at all.
If you want to know God's view of sex, read the Old Testament book,
The Song of Solomon (also called the Song of Songs). There is much
poetry and metaphor there so you do need to search the net for
interpretations of this book and I listed some there. For instance
at SOS 5:1 we have according to some commentators God saying to the
two lovers something like (and I'm doing this without looking it up)
"Eat, oh friends, drink deeply, oh lovers". So God is comparing
making love to a feast of food and drink and approving of the whole
thing, encouraging them to have a good time. But if you take sex too
seriously you will be in trouble. And if you do it outside marriage
you will be causing problems. Quite often you will have Christians
who take it too far and say or imply that all sex is bad and so they
are going to be more holy, more perfect by not having sex at all.
Then you get the implication that all sex is bad.
Nobody is fit for Heaven to start with, but we get it because we
honestly want what God has to offer. Once in Heaven expect physical
pleasures but you won't be taking them to excess the way people often
do on Earth. You won't have any problem taking them to excess because
you will be perfect because you honestly want to do what God wants.
Don
From: Carl Schwinn csch2215@yahoo.com
Time: Saturday, February 14, 2004 at 03:00:55 (GMT)
Thanks for the replies. I will read up on Zechariah. I don't know where I got these ideas but I generally thought that drinking alcohol, eating meat, and sex were bad. Maybe I read one too many accounts of the end of the decadent Roman empire. I used to think that maybe the Romans were that way because they took those three vices to the extreme but even if I enjoy moderately drinking alcohol, eating meat and sex, doesn't it make me the same? In my mind I would want to do all that much more if given the free rein. But I force restraint on myself. I shouldn't qualify for heaven then I think. I would still have the urges - which are only under control while I am on Earth because I am afraid of the consequences.
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Friday, February 13, 2004 at 19:46:44 (GMT)
>I myself eat meat everyday so I am probably not in a good position to
>say this, but would there be meat in Heaven? It would requiring killing
>animals. Should one give up eating meat? Do you think those terrorists
>who attacked the WTC towers with airplanes would have done that if they
>were vegetarian? I mean if you can't get yourself to kill a chicken or
>a fish how would you get the idea that it is ok to harm human beings who
>are far superior. I found your ideas very interesting so just
>wanted to discuss my questions here in this forum.
On Star Trek they have their "replicators" to make food, no actual
living things are killed but the molecules are arranged to be just
like real food. I would expect the same in Heaven. There is nothing
wrong with a good meal, especially if it's Italian cooking. :-)
God said after the Flood that eating meat was OK. He actually
required the Jews to make animal sacrifices as in Passover where
a lamb is sacrificed. The Passover sacrifice was pointing to the
death of Jesus in the future.
Terrorists just like to be nasty, it has nothing to do with eating
meat.
>Do you imagine a world without Jews? I keep reading that Jews have a
>low birth rate and small families in comparison to Christians and
>Muslims. And there is high degree of intermarriage even in places like
>Israel. Not to mention so many liberal and moderate Jews converting to
>Christianity these days especially in the NY/NJ area. What are your
>thoughts on that? I feel there would be a war between Christians and
>Muslims at that point - maybe WW3.
The Jews are God's chosen people. The usual interpretations of Bible
prophecy have God returning the Jews to their land of Israel in the
last days when the whole world will be against them and Jesus (the
Messiah) will show up at the last minute and save them. This is
based largely on Old Testament prophecies. In particular, see
Zechariah chapters 12 through 14. Even now you can see the world
becoming anti-Semitic. Then Jesus will rule the world from Jerusalem
and Israel will be the most important nation in the world. I'm kind
of running behind on my Bible prophecy page :-) If you want to know
more, say something here and I will say something right away
otherwise I will not be getting to that page in the near future.
Don
From: anonymous
Time: Friday, February 13, 2004 at 03:44:46 (GMT)
One last comment.
I myself eat meat everyday so I am probably not in a good position to say this, but would there be meat in Heaven? It would requiring killing animals. Should one give up eating meat? Do you think those terrorists who attacked the WTC towers with airplanes would have done that if they were vegetarian? I mean if you can't get yourself to kill a chicken or a fish how would you get the idea that it is ok to harm human beings who are far superior.
I found your ideas very interesting so just wanted to discuss my questions here in this forum.
From: anonymous
Time: Friday, February 13, 2004 at 03:17:55 (GMT)
Do you imagine a world without Jews? I keep reading that Jews have a low birth rate and small families in comparison to Christians and Muslims. And there is high degree of intermarriage even in places like Israel. Not to mention so many liberal and moderate Jews converting to Christianity these days especially in the NY/NJ area. What are your thoughts on that? I feel there would be a war between Christians and Muslims at that point - maybe WW3.
From: Don don@dontveter.com
Time: Monday, November 10, 2003 at 15:55:12 (GMT)
This is a test.
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Thursday, August 07, 2003 at 23:02:26 (GMT)
Hi Ilona,
you said:
>How do you view Jesus? I get mixed messages, like maybe you
>haven't made up your mind.
>Is he simply a special man? Is He the Son of God in the sense of
>being God?
>I am not sure from your statements, and it would help conversing
>with you on the pertinent points to know.
What confuses you? Unless it's the description of the trinity
as being like a computer system :-) Somehow God has three
parts, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and I thought the
computer system analogy was pretty clever. Nobody understands
it completely now but when we do I'm hoping I'm right, sort of
like buying a lottery ticket :-) Once upon a time St. Patrick
was trying to explain to the Irish what the Trinity was like and
he took a shamrock with it's three leaflets and said the trinity
was like that. My computer analogy is more up to date for
techies and more detailed too.
>through the oddity of checking my links I see that you had some
>return discussion :)
Miracles do happen!
>I will try to join in again on some of the ideas you presented.
>
>For now, I think that it is difficult to use ideas of science
>which aren't proven to discount the Bible concepts.
There is very little conflict between science and the Bible,
much less than most modern people think. A lot of the problem
comes from an INTERPRETATION from the young Earth creationists,
they are a rather vocal group and get all the attention.
>In ideas of death and decay predating Adam: how would that be
>proven? If you take the time chronology of the Bible and hold it
>against something like carbon dating or certain geological ideas
>there are problems that arise.
There are lots of fossils around, they're old, buried deep.
There have been too many different species over time to think
that they could have all been on Earth at once. I have not
looked into radioactive dating in detail, generally I think it
is reliable because many Christian scientists who understand it
think it is reliable, they seem rational, as opposed to the
young Earth creationists who ignore rational evidence.
>First, if the account of Noah's flood is true, and there were
>world-side catastophic events that might have changed how these
>scientific readings would read; they might have been far
>different.
Except there is no evidence for a world wide flood. The young
Earth creationist interpretation of the text is an
INTERPRETATION they make because they believe in a young Earth
to start with. The word that gets INTERPRETED as high mountains
could just as easily mean low hills and the word the Earth
could mean the local area or the whole planet. But when you
have a bias to start with you interpret it to fit your bias.
>How would you really know how things were pre-flood, let alone
>prior to Adam?
Rocks and fossils. Also ice in glaciers. You can go to the ice
in glaciers and count back at least about 14,500 years layer by
layer like tree rings. And there is still much more ice below
that level.
>Say if things were not perfect, but that was prior to the
>creation that we know? IOW, the imperfection was connected with
>that chaos, or the "dark and void waters" that are described,
>isn't the creation at its inception still considered good and
>perfect?
Depends on what you mean by good. Early in Genesis we have God
saying his creation was good. But then, for instance, take the
super-deterministic version of creation where everything from
0 to infinity popped into existence at once. In the end it is
good, the good guys live happily ever after and the plan God
used to get the good guys to the happy ending (that already
exists from his perspective) was good.
>Maybe our ideas of perfect are the problem. Often in the Bible
>that word has connotations of "complete".
>
>I don't know if that makes a difference.
>
>But the Bible account is that death and decay of this creation
>entered through the time of Adam.
No, death and decay IN HUMANS started because of Adam and Eve's
sin. The Greek word used there refers to people, not all life.
Here we have another case of people interpreting a word the
wrong way.
People also make the mistake of thinking that "death and decay"
means the "second law of thermodynamics" but that doesn't make
sense, the second law is unavoidable given the Big Bang at
the beginning of the universe.
>It comes down to a choice of whether we choose to believe that
>the Bible is giving us reliable information. That is why I
>started as I did: our quest for answers and those of us who
>look for God's revelation to us.
Obviously some people don't like the information the Bible is
giving so they call it fairy tales in order to make it easy to
avoid. Other people like what the Bible says. But science and
the Bible ought to be consistent.
>Personally, I think that because our knowledge base in science
>is so small compared to what *can* be known, that it would be
>an impossible quest for someone to wait until they had all the
>science to start thinking about God.
People always want to speculate no matter how little they know,
it's fun!
>You have to start at the place where you think that it could be
>reasonable to believe in God.
Mostly it is an issue of some people want him and some people
don't.
>How would one find out real evidence of death and decay before
>Adam? How does one corroborate the timetables? The science is
>just not there.
Yes it is.
>The science can only go on what seems reasonable, as well.
People are always speculating based on what they know. Some
people will recognize that there is guesswork and faith in
science and some don't, some think they know it all.
>So at least in terms of mans relating to the God of the
>universe, and of having life untouched by disease and death, I
>think it is best to go on the Bible account if one is going to
>go on to understanding Christ.
But there are different INTERPRETATIONS of the Biblical
account.
From: Ilona
Time: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 at 22:50:53 (GMT)
question:
How do you view Jesus? I get mixed messages, like maybe you haven't made up your mind.
Is he simply a special man? Is He the Son of God in the sense of being God?
I am not sure from your statements, and it would help conversing with you on the pertinent points to know.
Thanks:)
From: Ilona
Time: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 at 22:43:52 (GMT)
through the oddity of checking my links I see that you had some return discussion :)
I will try to join in again on some of the ideas you presented.
For now, I think that it is difficult to use ideas of science which aren't proven to discount the Bible concepts.
In ideas of death and decay predating Adam: how would that be proven? If you take the time chronology of the Bible and hold it against something like carbon dating or certain geological ideas there are problems that arise.
First, if the account of Noah's flood is true, and there were world-side catastophic events that might have changed how these scientific readings would read; they might have been far different.
How would you really know how things were pre-flood, let alone prior to Adam?
=====
Say if things were not perfect, but that was prior to the creation that we know? IOW, the imperfection was connected with that chaos, or the "dark and void waters" that are described, isn't the creation at its inception still considered good and perfect?
Maybe our ideas of perfect are the problem. Often in the Bible that word has connotations of "complete".
I don't know if that makes a difference.
But the Bible account is that death and decay of this creation entered through the time of Adam.
It comes down to a choice of whether we choose to believe that the Bible is giving us reliable information. That is why I started as I did: our quest for answers and those of us who look for God's revelation to us.
Personally, I think that because our knowledge base in science is so small compared to what *can* be known, that it would be an impossible quest for someone to wait until they had all the science to start thinking about God.
You have to start at the place where you think that it could be reasonable to believe in God.
How would one find out real evidence of death and decay before Adam? How does one corroborate the timetables? The science is just not there.
The science can only go on what seems reasonable, as well.
So at least in terms of mans relating to the God of the universe, and of having life untouched by disease and death, I think it is best to go on the Bible account if one is going to go on to understanding Christ.
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Friday, May 09, 2003 at 18:53:13 (GMT)
>The first question as a human being you
>should ask your self is way we as humans don't get along with
>each other? The answer may I suggest is due to our lack of
>intelligence. We as human beings have not evolved to a stage
>where we can think rationally enough to resolve issues in a
>just and fair way. We are too compelled to act in self interest
>and ignore the needs and just rights of others.
I don't see the problem as a lack of intelligence. Very
intelligent people can be very nasty and selfish.
If you mean physical evolution, I don't believe in that to
start with. If you mean social evolution I know that some
social evolution can improve conditions on Earth. I think
Biblical morality works and the more people who believe in
it the better off society will be, so there is a kind of
evolution here. Western culture has been dominant because
Western Civilization follows Biblical morality to a greater
degree than other cultures. But I see much of Western
Civilization giving up on Biblical morality so I won't be
at all surprised to find that it falls just like ancient Rome.
On the other hand I believe it is possible with the help of
Jesus for absolutely everyone to give up their selfish nature
and behave the way the God of the Bible would have us behave.
No one is handicapped by lack of intelligence.
>In the case of the natives and the whites in the last century
>the white folks felt totally justified in poplating and using
>this land. Where as the natives felt equally justifed in taking
>up arms and fighting back. This scenario has taken place
>through out this world as long as humans have been around.
Yes, I think American Indians were treated badly and I can't
really blame them too much for fighting back. On the other hand
if the Europeans and the American Indians were behaving the way
God wants all men to behave things would have been fine.
>The issue that has brought the Muslims to the lime light
>these days is the Israili-Palestinen issue. The issue that
>both sides are not willing to resolve is that each has a right
>to live.
There are very few Christians or Jews who think the Palestinians
don't have a right to live, there are so few they are
irrelevant. On the other hand it is pretty clear that the Arabs
are out to destroy the Jews. At least the Arabs who make the
headlines are saying that. Plus I have heard it said that the
Koran clearly states that infidels can be offered the chance to
convert to Islam but if they don't then they should be killed.
>You have heard and understand the American and British point of
>view on this issue. Now hear what Muslims think on this
>issue. (Research the following on your own you will not hear
>it on Christian TV.) The land of Palestine was occupied by the
>sun worshippers before Moses.
I'm not sure they were all sun worshipers, maybe some but I
think they worshiped other gods as well, Baal for instance.
>These same sun worshippers convereted to Jews after teachings of
>Moses.
Not in our history books. It started with Abraham, then his
descendants were in Egypt for a while before God through Moses
brought them out. God ordered the Jews to kill all the pagan
people in the land at that time but the Jews didn't do that,
many were left there and caused problems later.
>About 1900 years ago these same people found them
>selves following Jesus.
Not in our history books. In 70 AD the Romans destroyed the
Temple and the Jews were scattered around the world. Only a
small number of Jews at that time ever believed in Jesus.
>Then around 1300 years ago these poople converted to Islam.
>There was no mass exodus i.e Sun worshipers, Jews or Christians
>were not forced out. (The pressure to convert may have been
>present at all 3 of these times.)
OK, some time later Islam moved in and the local inhabitants
were mostly converted to Islam.
>Now we enter the 20th century. Jews that have suffered thru out
>the centuries in Europe, manage to convince the British in 1918
>that a Jewish home land ought to be created in Palastine, in
>exchange for jewish help in the War. (Belfore Agreement). The
>problem is that Palastine at this time has only a 2.5% Jewish
>population. The rest are Muslims and Christians. So the
>British who occupied Palastine between the 2 world wars allow
>mass immigration of Jews from Europe bringing the Jewish
>population significantly higher. In 1948 the Jews, who still
>are a significant minority, with the help of the British arms,
>force the majority population out of Palastine. Hence the State
>of Isreal is born. Populated mostly by the Europion Jews after
>evicting the native population.
I don't recall why the British were invading the area in 1917,
they were invading what was the Ottoman Empire, I know that.
Maybe the Ottoman Empire was on the losing side in World War
I. I don't think they were invading to create a homeland for
the Jews and they certainly did not need help from the Jewish
population.
>The Palstinians ever since have been struggling to establish
>their homeland. Muslims support their just struggle. Sometimes
>using violence, which by the way, most Muslims condemn. Not
The Moslems who get the headlines are the only ones we hear
about. For the Palestinians I would suggest that they should
try non-violent civil dis-obedience like that advocated by Gandhi
or better still do as Jesus said "Love your enemies".
>only the Muslims but most of the world finds Isrealis on the
>wrong side. There have been 140+ UN resolutions calling upon
>Isreal to act on this issue. USA’s unwavering support of
>Isreal without any regard to human rights of the Palestinians
>and against all International laws against occupation, has
>unfortunately put US on the wrong side in the minds of most
>around the world.
Well to start with I don't much care for the UN. Plus one old UN
resolution was that part of "Palestine" was to go to the Jews
but Arabs have never recognized that.
In the Old Testament we have it stated that:
1) God gave the land of Israel to the descendants of Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob as an inheritance forever.
2) God was going to kick the Jews out of Israel for their bad
behavior just like the exile in Babylon only longer.
3) After they were without any land of their own for quite a
long time God said he would bring them back, not because they
were good but because God wanted to prove his power to all the
nations of the world.
4) The whole world will unite against Israel and they will very
nearly capture it when Jesus returns to destroy the invaders.
5) Jesus rules the world for 1000 years from Jerusalem.
6) God also told Abraham "I will bless them that bless thee
and curse them that curse thee". Thus America is on the right
side. It also explains why the Arabs are cursed, not just by
losing all their wars with Israel but they are also cursed by
poverty and petty dictators.
>Switching the subjects on you a bit. I you really are interest
>in finding out what Islam is or is not, I suggest that you take
>a more scientific approach. Read the Koran yourself. Not rely
>on misinformation on TV.
Well, no I haven't read the Koran myself. I have never heard
anything good about it. If I have Islamic doctrine correct then
God adds up your good deeds and your bad deeds and if the good
outweighs the bad you get to Heaven otherwise you go to Hell.
This is not sensible or fair. With the God of the Bible all you
have to do is honestly want to give up your selfish (sinful)
nature and God will forget your sins and make you perfect in
Heaven. This is fair and makes sense.
>After all there are more than one million people (Christians) in
>USA alone that have read the Koran and have decided to embrace
>its teachings. More people all over the world convert to Islam
>than any other religion. There must be a reason. Find out, If
>you Dare!
1) From what I can tell there are not a very large number of
ethnic Europeans (nominally Christians) in America who have
become Moslems. Most Moslems in America appear to be ethnically
African and it appears to me they convert to Islam simply as a
way of rebelling against white European culture.
2) I kind of doubt that more people to convert to Islam than
anything else but the numbers argument doesn't matter, it is
flat-out given that most people will reject Jesus.
3) Islam is inconsistent in that while it recognizes Jesus as a
prophet it won't recognize what he said and did. I say God
approved of everything Jesus said and did by raising him from the
dead. Any revelation from God ought to be internally consistent.
Islam does not appear to be consistent with the Bible so it can't
be right.
4) What matters is that what we have from the God of the Bible
makes sense. Everyone really ought to give up their selfishness
and love each other. Plus Bible prophecy is working out as
expected, God has brought the Jews back to their home land and
the world is uniting against Israel. And then I see a lot of hate
in Islam rather than love.
Finally, if you think my perspective on Islam is wrong then
please go ahead and tell me what I should know about Islam.
Don
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Friday, May 09, 2003 at 15:16:47 (GMT)
Mussalman,
I'm going to take your note and try and cover it point by point and get
a response posted by tomorrow. In the meantime if you like please
consider one particular item on my pages, go to:
http://www.dontveter.com/notes/biblogic.html and if nothing else
skip to the part about "Will Any Religion Do?" where I compare
Christianity with Islam and other religions. Then tell me if I have
a fair representation of Islam there. It is what I have been hearing
on Christian TV from Christians who were former Moslems.
Thanks for you note,
Don
From: Mussalman
Time: Friday, May 09, 2003 at 00:57:00 (GMT)
Don,
Its quite interesting reading your and Ilona'a comments on Muslims or Islam.
Why don't you for a moment take off you Christian hat and put on the Human hat.
The first question as a human being you should ask your self is way we as humans don't get along with each other?
The answer may I suggest is due to our lack of intelligence.
We as human beings have not evolved to a stage where we
can think rationally enough to resolve issues in a just and fair way. We are too compelled to act in self interest and
ignore the needs and just rights of others. In the case of the natives and the whites in the last century the white folks
felt totally justified in poplating and using this land. Where as the natives felt equally justifed in taking up arms and
fighting back. This scenario has taken place through out this world as long as humans have been around.
The issue that has brought the Muslims to the lime light these days is the Israili-Palestinen issue.
The issue that both sides are not willing to resolve is that each has a right to live.
You have heard and understand the American and British point of view on this issue.
Now hear what Muslims think on this issue.
(Research the following on your own you will not hear it on Christian TV.)
The land of Palestine was occupied by the sun worshippers before Moses.
These same sun worshippers convereted to Jews after teachings of Moses.
About 1900 years ago these same people found them selves following Jesus.
Then around 1300 years ago these poople converted to Islam.
There was no mass exodus i.e Sun worshipers, Jews or Christians were not forced out.
(The pressure to convert may have been present at all 3 of these times.)
Now we enter the 20th century.
Jews that have suffered thru out the centuries in Europe,
manage to convince the British in 1918 that a Jewish home land ought to be created in Palastine, in exchange for jewish help in the War. (Belfore Agreement).
The problem is that Palastine at this time has only a 2.5% Jewish population.
The rest are Muslims and Christians.
So the British who occupied Palastine between the 2 world wars allow
mass immigration of Jews from Europe bringing the Jewish population significantly higher.
In 1948 the Jews, who still are a significant minority, with the help of the British arms, force the majority population out of Palastine.
Hence the State of Isreal is born. Populated mostly by the Europion Jews after evicting the native population.
The Palstinians ever since have been struggling to establish their homeland.
Muslims support their just struggle. Sometimes using violence,
which by the way, most Muslims condemn.
Not only the Muslims but most of the world finds Isrealis on the wrong side.
There have been 140+ UN resolutions calling upon Isreal to act on this issue.
USA’s unwavering support of Isreal without any regard to human rights of the Palestinians and against all International laws against occupation, has unfortunately put US on the wrong side in the minds of most around the world .
Switching the subjects on you a bit.
I you really are interest in finding out what Islam is or is not,
I suggest that you take a more scientific approach.
Read the Koran yourself. Not rely on misinformation on TV.
After all there are more than one million people (Christians) in USA alone
that have read the Koran and have decided to embrace its teachings.
More people all over the world convert to Islam than any other religion.
There must be a reason. Find out, If you Dare!
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 at 19:50:23 (GMT)
Jesus is quite important in the scheme of things. He had a nice
cushy "job" there in Heaven but he cared enough about sinners on
Earth to leave the cushy surroundings of Heaven and come here to
live among us and tell us how to live. And in those days Earth
was pretty much what most of us today would regard as a slum.
Not only did he live here but he was assigned to die here. Why?
I am not happy with one of the common traditional explanations
so I am going to start with other reasons and then mention the
traditional one.
Christ's death makes a number of important points that could not
be made in any other way. First, as noted above Christ cared
enough to come here and die to help us find God. Second, his
death showed just how many people hate God and what He has to
offer, it makes the nastiness of sin really, really clear to
everyone. All Jesus did is go around telling people that they
needed to repent but so many people did not like that that they
arranged to put him to death just so they didn't have to listen to
him anymore.
The next consideration is that Jesus did all sorts of miracles
here on Earth including bringing a number of people back to
life. Now if it was only Jesus doing these things with some
magic powers of his own then he still ought to be good and dead
because once you're dead, how can you help yourself? But having
been dead God had the opportunity to do a miracle Himself by
bringing Jesus back to life and thereby endorse everything
Jesus said and did here on Earth.
Plus, of course the death and resurrection of anyone is a very
remarkable event given that everyone else who dies just stays
dead. It gets attention.
The next consideration is that if God can bring Jesus back to
life He can do it for everyone else too and indeed Jesus was
saying just that while he was on Earth. The event gives hope.
There are people who believe in re-incarnation or people who
just think everyone goes to Heaven because God is so nice He
wouldn't toss anyone into Hell. If either case was true there
would be no point to Jesus coming to Earth, suffering on the
cross and dying because everyone was going to Heaven anyway, but
his suffering and death shows there is a Hell that God is trying
to keep people out of.
More in the next day or two or three.
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 at 15:55:57 (GMT)
For your concept 1 you say everything was perfect. Given the
scientific evidence there was plenty of death and decay going on
long before Adam and Eve showed up. The only perfection that
was really required is that the Garden of Eden had to be perfect
for a little while.
You also talk about pre-destination. What the latest in modern
physics seems to be saying is that the whole physical universe
has been planned from beginning to end. There is a perspective
from which it is all finished. Someone God knows what everyone
decides and prays for and then built the physical world around
it. God knew from the beginning there would be a fall. In
fact, it is all designed to show the angels and us that sin
can't work. (Ephesians 3:8-10) So sometimes people ask what
would have happened if Adam and Eve didn't sin. But that
doesn't make sense because a major point, if not the only point
is to show that sin doesn't work.
More tomorrow or the next day. I have never been able to figure
out the traditional Christian interpretation that Christ had to
die for our sins in the sense of paying a penalty for us as in
the traditional analogy: You go speeding through town. You
get caught by the police. You go before the judge and are found
guilty, the fine is $50 but you can't pay so you go to jail.
But someone is there in the court room who volunteers to pay the
fine for you. Now I can see how Christ had to die for our sins
in other senses of the phrase but not in the sense of this
analogy.
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Monday, February 24, 2003 at 19:03:49 (GMT)
After you submit a comment you get a page that is neatly formatted
showing you what you said but there is no chance to go and re-write
it. I used to write things up offline and then when I got it right
I pasted it into the window. The whole set-up here is like Daystar.
I did want to make this more sophisticated but I haven't gotten around
to that yet.
Is there a way to get to Delphi by way of the net or is Delphi some
special service?
Forums are often like a football game, a guy sort of thing where the
object is to win by making the other guy lose, that is a motivating
factor especially for guys but Christians ought to be very nice.
Now I just went off and took a look at your latest page:
http://www.geocities.com/reflectpool/Doctrine.html and I saved it and
I will come up with some comments maybe by tomorrow. One thing I could
say now is that no one understands the trinity for sure, however :-)
I'd like to guess:
Consider your PC. It has a system box with lots of memory and
processing power. It does most of the thinking that goes on in your
PC but that's not enough. To interact with it you need something you
can lay your hands on, like a mouse, a keyboard, a screen, a microphone
and speaker. The screen and the keyboard have a little processing power
built-in but not much compared to the CPU. The third thing your PC
needs is cables to connect the parts or these days some people have
wireless connections for these parts. Now especially in the wireless
system you need a little processing power but not much compared to the
system box with the CPU.
So now I will guess that God is like the system box with most of the
memory and processing power. Jesus is the material body that was here
on Earth that we could interact with (like your screen, keyboard, mouse,
etc.) And the Holy Spirit is like the connections, whether they be
wires or wireless. All distinct entities with some thinking ability
built-in but all necessary to form one complete God just like the parts
form one complete computer.
But that's only a guess.
From: anonymous(afraid to say)
Time: Sunday, February 23, 2003 at 14:49:09 (GMT)
Nope. The back and then post produces dbl. posting.
From: me again
Time: Sunday, February 23, 2003 at 14:47:53 (GMT)
OK. What I could really use is preview and back button on the "posted" page.
Ah well. You can get used to my crazy punctuation and typos and I can get used to remembering to select the url on the back button.
:) Otherwise you may not find dbl. posting so cute. Almost did it again.
wait.... the posting page is the preview, right? I could check it and go back to the form page. I check this out next time. It seems that I am making up in quantity what I lack in quality on these posts.
From: me again
Time: Sunday, February 23, 2003 at 14:47:30 (GMT)
OK. What I could really use is preview and back button on the "posted" page.
Ah well. You can get used to my crazy punctuation and typos and I can get used to remembering to select the url on the back button.
:) Otherwise you may not find dbl. posting so cute. Almost did it again.
wait.... the posting page is the preview, right? I could check it and go back to the form page. I check this out next time. It seems that I am making up in quantity what I lack in aulity on these posts.
From: Ilona
Time: Sunday, February 23, 2003 at 14:33:39 (GMT)
Just wanted to add:
I don't really think you want to study them, it tends to suck you into a reactionary state of mind. And there really is so much obfuscation going on in such circumstances ( the manipulation and the saving-face tactics) that I don't know that the real person is very exposed for examination, anyway.
What I wonder is how much of this is true of internet interactions as a whole. Or is it mainly found on specific formats...
don't know.
From: Ilona
Time: Sunday, February 23, 2003 at 14:27:28 (GMT)
Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you.
I think the difference is that your conversations on creationism vs evolution have probably taken place within the more well-mannered types of forums peopled with those of intellectual motivations.
I have oth spent time in the past year on Delphi. Land of trolls and sharks..... or maybe they were pirhanas? Maybe it was simply the larger scale, but I also think that there was a gauntlet mentality.
We expect Christians to have certain standards..... but come to know that this is something needing ..hmm.. re-creation?
I have always admired Francis Schaeffer, but I think his compassionate attitude and style of discussion is something I would more like to emulate myself. Sometimes, christians, and those who hold the philosophical and scientific theories compatible to them, can become sort of calloused. ( me included).
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Saturday, February 15, 2003 at 15:21:26 (GMT)
The double posting is cute. I used to hang out at Daystar where it
happened from time to time and I looked at their code and never figured
it out, oh, well, no problem.
Sure, the Iraqis will get tired of us if we hang around there a while
but we won't, we want to get out as fast as possible.
You said that you found nasty young Earth creationists somewhere?
Where would that be? I'd like to study some, I've seen plenty of
nasty evolutionists at Daystar but never a nasty young Earth creationist.
From: Ilona
Time: Saturday, February 15, 2003 at 14:59:30 (GMT)
sorry about the double posting... am not sure how that happened... I think I refreshed the page or something.
From: Ilona
Time: Saturday, February 15, 2003 at 14:57:54 (GMT)
Don said:
"true Moslems are supposed to hate Christians and
Jews and kill them. They quote chapter and verse from the Koran. I
think one big effect of Islamism will be to turn many Moslems into
Christians although of course other Moslems will simply hate us more,
Now Saddam is a nasty guy and I think most Iraqis will welcome us the
same way the French welcomed the Allies at the liberation of Paris."
I:
Actually, from what I am able to read from it, Moslems have a belief that all will turn to Islam... it is the accepted methods of accomplishing this that sorts the Muslims into different forms.
"Islamism will be to turn many Moslems into
Christians "
- I have thought this, myself. Due to the conflict of the idea that Islam is a "peaceful religion" and its exposure through the increasing terrorist actions.
"I think most Iraqis will welcome us the
same way the French welcomed the Allies "
Here I disagree. For several reasons, I do not think this will happen. Already, the Afghanis have become less enamored... and they were under a particularly repressive form of Islamic government. In Iraq, Americans are viewed as the instigator of many of their problems.... I do not think this will vanish, but increase, in the face of war conditions.
From: Ilona
Time: Saturday, February 15, 2003 at 14:56:53 (GMT)
Don said:
"true Moslems are supposed to hate Christians and
Jews and kill them. They quote chapter and verse from the Koran. I
think one big effect of Islamism will be to turn many Moslems into
Christians although of course other Moslems will simply hate us more,
Now Saddam is a nasty guy and I think most Iraqis will welcome us the
same way the French welcomed the Allies at the liberation of Paris."
I:
Actually, from what I am able to read from it, Moslems have a belief that all will turn to Islam... it is the accepted methods of accomplishing this that sorts the Muslims into different forms.
"Islamism will be to turn many Moslems into
Christians "
- I have thought this, myself. Due to the conflict of the idea that Islam is a "peaceful religion" and its exposure through the increasing terrorist actions.
"I think most Iraqis will welcome us the
same way the French welcomed the Allies "
Here I disagree. For several reasons, I do not think this will happen. Already, the Afghanis have become less enamored... and they were under a particularly repressive form of Islamic government. In Iraq, Americans are viewed as the instigator of many of their problems.... I do not think this will vanish, but increase, in the face of war conditions.
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Friday, February 14, 2003 at 19:24:27 (GMT)
Test five.
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Friday, February 14, 2003 at 19:18:53 (GMT)
Test four.
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter. com
Time: Friday, February 14, 2003 at 19:04:23 (GMT)
I've decided Islam is a religion that includes human sacrifice, like the
old pagan religions of Central and South America and so forth. It is
lucky for us that most Moslems don't read the Koran (like most US
"Christians" don't read the Bible) or they would all be after us. I've
seen a number of former Moslems on Christian TV who are now Christians
say over and over that true Moslems are supposed to hate Christians and
Jews and kill them. They quote chapter and verse from the Koran. I
think one big effect of Islamism will be to turn many Moslems into
Christians although of course other Moslems will simply hate us more,
I think it all depends are whether or not they are headed to Heaven or
Hell in the end.
Now Saddam is a nasty guy and I think most Iraqis will welcome us the
same way the French welcomed the Allies at the liberation of Paris. The
Islamists and the other Arabs will hate it. Moslems in general ought
not to feel like we are after them militarily but on the other hand they
must give up hating their neighbors and members of other religions and
especially the Jews.
From: Ilona
Time: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 at 17:05:05 (GMT)
Hi! Somewhat delayed by an unforeseen web "event". The server that I have my free childbirth site on repeatedly dumps my site. Took me some time to rebuild it. But it looks and works better now.
So, where should we start in the discussions? I have no presently pressing opinions. Although, like everyone else, the Iraqi situation makes me uneasy.
I heard a bit of a discussion on the radio the other day: a Muslim man called in and was protesting that when Hitler waged war it was not labeled "Christian", but that the present terrorist situaion was labeled, "Islamic". I thought the moderator answered well when he stated that many who were not "Christians" in motivations participated in the Nazi war effort, but which of the attacks in this present situation are not Muslim?
I did not hear the rest of the comments, but it does raise an interesting dilemma: so we ignore that Islam, as a religion is directly instigating terrorist/war acts?
OTH, I understand the Muslims uneasiness with the spectre of being grouped and villainized. I ponder where the Christians response is in all this.... how narrow a path in speaking the truth about Islam and between becoming persecutors or vigilantes?
From: DDC
Time: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 at 01:01:36 (GMT)
Ok from the link
From: Anónimo
Time: Monday, February 10, 2003 at 20:47:44 (GMT)
Testing from The Lost World:-)
From: Don don@dontveter.com
Time: Monday, February 10, 2003 at 20:05:54 (GMT)
Third test.
From: Don don@dontveter.com
Time: Monday, February 10, 2003 at 20:03:24 (GMT)
Second test.
From: Don don@dontveter.com
Time: Monday, February 10, 2003 at 19:08:23 (GMT)
Testing.
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Monday, April 08, 2002 at 18:21:39 (GMT)
A test of the system.
From: Don don@dontveter.com
Time: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 at 07:54:26 (PST)
http://www.gimp.org
abc
http://www.gimp.org, http://www.gimp.org
http://www.gimp.org/temp,xyz=?,pdq
From: Don don@dontveter.com
Time: Monday, February 19, 2001 at 11:47:37 (PST)
a phony: http:// and another not so phony: http://nowhere.
yet another test line
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Monday, February 19, 2001 at 11:41:51 (PST)
A test of ordinary text.
Happy President's Day
From: Don Tveter don@dontveter.com
Time: Monday, February 19, 2001 at 11:32:06 (PST)
This is a test of comma: http://www.gimp.org,
and this is without a comma: http://www.gimp.org